Pope: Medugorie "International Sanctuary"

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TPJCatholic:
setter,

Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, is present in HIs Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in every Catholic Church. One does not need to go to any apparition site to make a personal encounter with God, they need only to go to their local Church and worship and praise God in person.

I see no reason for any Catholic to go to sites that are not yet approved, and have also received negative statements by the local Bishops. We have all the tools we need.
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By this same rationale, you would have to neccesarily exclude believers from seeking intercession with the communion of saints and the the holy mother of God – just go straight to Jesus (a very protestant notion).

What if God decides (as He has in notable approved apparitions and those uninvestigated though discerned to be worthy of merit with their competent spiritual director) to use other “tools” to reach out to His people?

St. Paul does allude to the availability of “visions” and “dreams” as “tools” for God to communicate personally to His people.

“I must boast; there is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows – and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.” **2 Cor. 12:1-4 **

“And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;” Acts 2:17
Corporeal vision. Corporeal vision is a supernatural manifestation of an object to the eyes of the body. It may take place in two ways: either a figure really present strikes the retina and there determines the physical phenomenon of the vision, or an agent superior to man directly modifies the visual organ and produces in the composite a sensation equivalent to that which an external object would produce. According to the authorities the first is the usual manner; it corresponds to the invincible belief of the seer, e.g. Bernadette at Lourdes; it implies a minimum of miraculous intervention if the vision is prolonged or if it is common to several persons. But the presence of an external figure may be understood in two ways. Sometimes the very substance of the being or the person will be presented; sometimes it will be merely an appearance consisting in a certain arrangement of luminous rays. The first may be true of living persons and even, it would seem, of the now glorious bodies of Christ and the Blessed Virgin, which by the eminently probable supernatural phenomenon of multilocation may become present to men without leaving the abode of glory. The second is realized in the corporeal apparition of the unresurrected dead or of pure spirits.
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newadvent.org/cathen/15477a.htm
 
I pay absolutely no attention to those crackpot seers.
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Well thought out response.
Have you met any of them?
And what was it about them that caused you to decide they were crackpots?

The trouble the local authorities had was that they tried very hard to prove they were crackpots and all their tests came back as normal.
 
setter,

My point is that the fullness of the faith includes all of the tools Christ chose for us for our salvation. That obviously includes the Saints and Angels as means of help.

Do not forget that supernatural sightings are not always from God, we must be extremely careful going there and when the Church has not approved of something, then that is good enough reason to stay away.
 
I’m wondering - then - if catholics who traveled to Fatima and Lourdes prior to the official approval were doing anything wrong?
 
It is not a matter of right or wrong…it is a matter of what ir prudent for the sake of our own faith. The basic truth is, no-one needs to travel to any apparition site, they have all the tools they need right where they are.
 
The basic truth is, no-one needs to travel to any apparition site, they have all the tools they need right where they are.
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Maybe they do, maybe they don’t.
If God chooses to reach out to people in a special way - in a special place, who are we to say He cannot?

Surely God can heal anyone, anywhere, at anytime, and yet He seems to bless the place of Lourdes with a special gift of healing.
 
Lorarose,

It is indisputable that we have all the tools we need. The Roman Catholic faith is full and complete just as it is and all the tools we need to receive salvation can be found in the same. That is one of the main reasons the Church does not mandate belief in approved apparitions, the Church knows we have all we need.
 
Lorarose,
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It is indisputable that we have all the tools we need. The Roman Catholic faith is full and complete just as it is and all the tools we need to receive salvation can be found in the same. That is one of the main reasons the Church does not mandate belief in approved apparitions, the Church knows we have all we need.
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I am not arguing about the Catholic faith not being full.
I simply think it is possible that God uses different methods to reach out to different people.
That some people respond differently to different blessings is His department.
God can choose to reach out to any of us in any way He chooses.

He did this at Lourdes.
Now…if people were being prudent back then and refusing to visit a nonapproved site - then we wouldn’t have seen the miraculous healings that led to the offical approval.
 
Lorarose,

Granted, the healings are a wonderful example of God’s mercy. Yet, healings can and do take place across the globe. I personally think the apparitions are more about waking people up, then in providing healings. Millions and millions of people know about Lourdes and Fatima, and it reminds them of the need of faith and repentance…they do not need to go there to know that.

Also, one the greatest (perhaps greatest) mircale of all time takes place every singl day, many times a day, at our local Churches when the bread and wine is miraculously transformed into the Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord. God is right there in every Catholic Church and God is with us every time two or more of us gather in Jesus’ name, and God is with us each time we pray. We do not need to to travel thousands of miles to worship God. Nor do we need to travel thousands of miles to receive God’s Graces–it is all available to us in our own personal lives.

Now that is far more incredible imo.
 
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Lorarose:
Well thought out response.
Have you met any of them?
And what was it about them that caused you to decide they were crackpots?

The trouble the local authorities had was that they tried very hard to prove they were crackpots and all their tests came back as normal.
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I second bones_IV response, and it was well thought out.

I did meet one, at a Marian conference. Two things bothered me about the conference, first (has nothing to do with Med.) was how all the priests present described themselves as “Mary’s priest”, the second was how the “seer” seemed to be able to have a “vision” on demand, that and all the money that was spent on the “seer”.
 
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Lorarose:
He did this at Lourdes.
Now…if people were being prudent back then and refusing to visit a nonapproved site - then we wouldn’t have seen the miraculous healings that led to the offical approval.
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That is if you believe in Lourdes, even with the Church saying that the apparition is authentic (I would not say approval as that is a much stonger word) no Catholic is bound to believe in Lourdes. A faithful Catholic does not have to believe in Lourdes or any other appartion.

They are private revelations, Public Revelation is closed.
 
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ByzCath:
. . . first (has nothing to do with Med.) was how all the priests present described themselves as “Mary’s priest” … …
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What of the thought that John Paul II was Mary’s pope? His motto “Totally yours” referred to Mary I think.
 
Joe Kelley:
What of the thought that John Paul II was Mary’s pope? His motto “Totally yours” referred to Mary I think.
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Yes, I think it did. He took Mary as his special patron, just as we take special patrons in our baptism and confirmation.

But keep in mind that not even the Pope could make any private revelation a required belief for any Catholic.

Also, if you look into the numbers of alleged apparations, you might be astonished at the number which have been disapproved.
 
Joe Kelley:
What of the thought that John Paul II was Mary’s pope? His motto “Totally yours” referred to Mary I think.
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I never heard the pope call himself “Mary’s Pope”.

It is comments like that that make protestants think what we worship Mary. Mary has no priests. Only God has priests.

While I can sort of understand what they mean when they say this I think they have gone to far.

To be devoted to Mary is fine, but to label yourself as “Mary’s priest” raises alot of issues in my and others minds.
 
I would think any priest describing themselves as Mary’s priest simply means they are devoted to her - or are consecrated to her. John Paul dedicated his entire papacy to her.
That protestants don’t understand this is not the fault of the priests or the pope.

I agree with TPJ catholic that the greatest miracle is on the altar at every mass. I just don’t think it is a “either” “or” situation.
That you “either” think one thing is a miracle “or” you think the other is.
That God offers us blessing upon blessing is a beautiful thing.

I am not arguing the points about public revelation vs. private revelation.
It’s understood and there’s no problem with that.

If I had to point my finger at what bothers me most about these Medjugorje discussions I think it would boil down to a bunch of people taking sides on the issue as if they know the whole story.
A bunch of people arguing, fighting, and making snide remarks about people they don’t know.
A bunch of people who have taken it upon themselves to judge this situation when that duty has not been given to them.

That duty has been given to the Church.
The Church has placed that duty into the hands of conference of bishops.
The Church will view all the evidence - both for and against - and will eventually rule on it.

People who are convinced - right now- that Medjugorje is the real deal - have to be prepared for a possible ruling against it.
People who are convinced it is a hoax must be prepared that there may be a possible approval.

Someday alot of people are going to be very disappointed irregardless of what the Church decides.

And in the end - all this bickering we do amongst ourselves is a complete waste of time.
 
Lacrose, how do you explain the seers involvement with illegal organizations such as the Caritas of Birmingham (who are not approved by the Church and are in grave disobedience to Rome)?
Caritas of Birmingham is a right wing Protestant organization. How do you explain the alleged visit by Pope John Paul II? It never happened.
 
Lacrose, how do you explain the seers involvement with illegal organizations such as the Caritas of Birmingham (who are not approved by the Church and are in grave disobedience to Rome)?
Caritas of Birmingham is a right wing Protestant organization. How do you explain the alleged visit by Pope John Paul II? It never happened.
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First of all…anytime these threads devolve into debate for or against Medjugorje they quickly get locked.

I will say this…I have noticed that people and organizations who feel their mission is to promote Medjugorje do not seem to pause and consider reasons for discernment.

I also have noticed that people and organizations who feel their mission is to “bring Medjugorje down” fail to consider any positive evidence and I have also seen fabrications just for the purpose of smearing reputations.

In this situation everyone becomes their own expert - citing the evidence they see fit to consider, and pretend their position is the position of the Church.

What I’m saying is that the Church will consider ALL of it.
I’m sure if you or I are aware of any evidence - for or against - then the Church must be aware of it also.

So, my opinion doesn’t matter here. I am willing to trust the decisions made by the Church.
 
This thread started out with a simple question to which no one seems to be able to provide a direct answer and has now ventured into areas which we do not discuss here. Thread closed.

Walt
 
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