Pope meets Irish bishops on child abuse scandal

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The same thing can’t be said of the Druids as their religion is not that of the true faith of the Roman Catholic and Apostolic Religion.

Of course, there are good Irish protestants, but what I am saying is that they should not complain about some of their taxes goign to the Church because their ancestors did the same thing for several hundred years. And the IRA is not a white crusading army because of some of it’s disreputable actions and the links of some of it’s members to Marxism which is an ideology incompatible with Catholicism.

Power: despite the changes in the Church since the 1960s I am still a firm believer in Pope Pius XII’s ‘grand design’ for the Catholic Church whereby the whole world was to be dominated by the Church though political power, diplomacy, canon law and concordats. The world would be a better place if everyone accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour and obeyed the Roman Pontiff his vicar on Earth.
 
Dewdropdeb said:
No you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. Of course they should receive compensation, my point is that I should not have to pay for it. The church has plenty of assets, here and abroad that could be liquidised to pay for it. Innocent bystanders should not have to open their wallets.
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I don’t think it’s so much my misunderstanding (although I am at some remove from the situation) as that you are not being clear about what you mean. You have said in previous posts that the money was going to pedophiles and then that it was going to damage control - re-read your posts if you don’t believe me.

However, I think we can agree that (a) justice demands the victims receive compensation (b) the Irish taxpayer/government shouldn’t have to pay and (c) the Church should shoulder this financial burden from its considerable assets in Ireland.

What still bothers me is that you seem to think of the Church and the laity as mutually exclusive in terms of the effects this will have on them. If the Church in Ireland liquidates its assets that means that real estate within your diocese, maybe even in your parish (I’m thinking of e.g. parochial/community centers, etc) will be affected and the services they offer and any jobs they provide will be lost to that community. So, either way and without having to open your wallet, you as a practicing Catholic will “pay” in some way.
 
While the Church will gain praise in the short term for liquidating it’s assests if they chose to pay the victims instead of the government in the long term it will be a mistake as less institutions and assets will mean less political and financial power, which the Church needs to remain strong and survive in the modern world.
 
Brickmaker said:
I don’t think it’s so much my misunderstanding (although I am at some remove from the situation) as that you are not being clear about what you mean. You have said in previous posts that the money was going to pedophiles and then that it was going to damage control - re-read your posts if you don’t believe me.

However, I think we can agree that (a) justice demands the victims receive compensation (b) the Irish taxpayer/government shouldn’t have to pay and (c) the Church should shoulder this financial burden from its considerable assets in Ireland.

What still bothers me is that you seem to think of the Church and the laity as mutually exclusive in terms of the effects this will have on them. If the Church in Ireland liquidates its assets that means that real estate within your diocese, maybe even in your parish (I’m thinking of e.g. parochial/community centers, etc) will be affected and the services they offer and any jobs they provide will be lost to that community. So, either way and without having to open your wallet, you as a practicing Catholic will “pay” in some way.
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Agreed with your lettered points. As for the next paragraph, I’m not deluded thank you very much, I do understand that, although it could be argued that the church itself does not offer too many services in Ireland outside standard liturgy and most of that is delat with by separate entities and charities with church backing. However I think there’s some interesting room for negotiation between church and state on that one. Effectively the church owns our schools and we cannot separate church from state until that land is bought by the state, who cannot afford to do so at this time. While I personally appreciate the fact that my children are receiving a Catholic education, I know I am in the minority there. If the church were to relinquish some of the publicly funded school land at subsidized cost, there could be a way to pay the costs without effectively losing much.

The education system as it stands now usually consists of the parish priest on the school board and the school children making their first sacraments at the local church. The church have little to no control over the curriculum or most other school activities and practices. It is mostly dealt with by The Department of Education and the Health Service Executive so them losing the land would really not make much difference except on a piece of paper somewhere in the County Council’s land deeds. But somehow I doubt they’d acquiesce on this one, although as more and more privately funded secular schools pop up around Ireland, they may have to look long and hard at this one.
KC91 said:
Power: despite the changes in the Church since the 1960s I am still a firm believer in Pope Pius XII’s ‘grand design’ for the Catholic Church whereby the whole world was to be dominated by the Church though political power, diplomacy, canon law and concordats. The world would be a better place if everyone accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour and obeyed the Roman Pontiff his vicar on Earth.
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That to me is quite a tyrannical and terrifying thought. I’ll stick with democracy and all it’s faults thank you very much.
 
Democracy? Generally speaking democracies haven’t been that good for the Church. They imposed secularism and legalised abortion. On the other hand, rigid governments, rigid concordats bring about an atmosphere of Catholic peace and stability. An authoritarian Church co-existing with an authoritarian state is more useful for the Church than an authoritarian Church in opposition to a democratic state as is the case in most places now. Tyrannical? Well Jesus Christ told the apostles to convert princes, etc so in essence that was the origin of the ‘Great Design’.

In referal to the Irish Bishops and the payments the major exception would be the generous Irish democratic government. However, the lack of ‘democracy’ in ‘democracies’ is revealed by the secularist anger at governments whenever they do something Catholic or help the Church. Ireland would be one of the starting points for any Vatican re-starting of the ‘Grand Design’ due to the generous and cooperative nature of it’s government in comparison with the secularist governments of Spain, France, etc.
 
One of the biggest components of democracy is “majority rules”
 
Dewdropdeb said:
I suppose the same could be said of the Druids then?

This is not about power, the fact is, a church should not hold power over a sovereign nation, that’s not right and has caused nothing but trouble since it’s inception. There are plenty of very Irish protestants too. As alluded too earlier in this discussion, you seem to have a romanticised and very misinformed view of things in Ireland. It’s not all protestant vs. Catholic anymore, one could argue that it never really was.

I used to get so frustrated when I lived in the US. People would think the IRA was a good thing (when in reality they have reigned terror on this nation, irrespective of religion in the name of so-called nationalism for longer than Al Quida.) and have Sinn Fein poster because they have Irish heritage, where in reality they had absolutely no clue what that really meant.

You keep talking about power and that’s kind of scary to me. Only God has power not man. A false view of power is whats gotten us into this mess in the first place. Forcing our view of God’s will on others is not the way to win people over and history has shown it does quite the opposite. :confused:
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It is very easy for people in the United States to overly-romanticize Ireland. Irish immigrants shaped a significant part of this country into what it is today- and they kept their memories of their homeland alive through Irish (or Irish American) traditions, and folk songs. They knew it wasn’t perfect- they would never have left if it was, but it still was home to them, so it meant a lot to them. Their fondness for their homeland has been remembered, but the imperfection that they had experienced while living there has mostly been forgotten- very few people who claim to have Irish heritage ever actually lived in Ireland (most probably have never even been there) or even knew any of their ancestors that lived there. Maybe the fondness can be turned from useless nostalgia about a place that only exists in their minds to something useful- a call to prayer for a place that really needs it.
 
KC91 said:
Power: despite the changes in the Church since the 1960s I am still a firm believer in Pope Pius XII’s ‘grand design’ for the Catholic Church whereby the whole world was to be dominated by the Church though political power, diplomacy, canon law and concordats. The world would be a better place if everyone accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour and obeyed the Roman Pontiff his vicar on Earth.
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I can think of nothing more frightening. The Catholic church has its chance during the Middle Ages, leading up to the Reformation for its groww abuses during a tim eof extreme ignorance. It reached its pinnacle of power during the Inquisition in Spain, , after which it took Spain a couple of centuries to recover until Franco tried to turn back the clock. Modern Spain has rewarded its dark Catholic past by making contraception and gay marriage legal and loosening restrictions on abortion.

The Anglican church in Ireland was on its own financially in the second half of the 19th c., about 1873. It has a tiny presence in Ireland, tho’ growing. After Irish independence, De Valera, the president of Ireland for many years, gave uninhibited power to the Roman Catholic church, which paved the way for appalling abuses.

You should learn your Irish history.
 
Dew, majority rules: Well it happens that the majority favor positions opposite to those of the Church. So majority rule is bad, a minority rule by a small political and financial elite loyal to the Church imposing it’s will on the majority would be better. It is good that despite the proven antipathy of much of the population the elites in Ireland are still loyal to the Church, as proved by their willingness to pay the Church’s bill.

anode: You have a poor understanding of Catholic and Spanish history, believing too much in the ‘black legend’. If it wasn’t for Catholicism there would have been no Spain. Without the great Spanish Empire and great Spanish leaders like Ferdinand and Isabella and Phillip II Catholicism would not be the dominant religion in many places in the world. Franco may have had his faults but at least he was loyal to Rome and like De Valera, a great Catholic statesman. As for De Valera he was the ideal Catholic statesman and deserves canonization as a good example of how a leader should be in these dark ages of secularism. Rome should be the center of the world with all the whole world revolving around the colonnade of St. Peter’s Square. Modern day Spain is an example of what happens when the satanic heresy of secularism prevails.

There is no comparison between the Anglican Church in Ireland and the Catholic Church in Ireland. The Anglicans have been milking the majority Catholic population for hundreds of years which is hardly ever mentioned while people moan about a small amount of Irish taxes going to the Catholic Church for several decades, a Church that is made of… the majority.

And happy Saint Patrick’s Day.
 
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