Pope, Obama discuss relations between Church and State [CNA]

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Slaney said:
Knowing the humility of Pope Francis I’m sure he would rather no-one bow to him…
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It is not the person who is the Pope that you bow to, it is the office of Pope that you bow to. Personal humility doesn’t come into it. You bow because of what the person represents.
 
Interesting to look at the official communiqué:
This morning Barack H. Obama, president of the United States of America, was received in audience by Pope Francis, after which he met with Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin and Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, secretary for Relations with States.

During the cordial meeting, views were exchanged on some current international themes and hope was expressed that, in areas of conflict, there would be respect for humanitarian and international law and a negotiated solution between the parties involved.

In the context of bilateral relations and cooperation between Church and State, the Parties discussed questions of particular relevance for the Church, such as the exercise of the rights to religious freedom, life and conscientious objection, as well as the issue of immigration reform. Finally, the Parties stated their common commitment to the eradication of human trafficking throughout the world.
Note that economic issues were not discussed (regardless of what the WaPo says). But in regard to the US, the issues that were discussed were:
  • Religious Freedom
  • Life
  • Conscientious Objection
  • Immigration Reform
The only area where they found common ground was on the eradication of human trafficking. That is profound.

Contrast the above communique with the one released for the Holy Father’s visit today with the President of Greece:
This morning in the Vatican Apostolic Palace, the Holy Father Francis received in audience the president of the Hellenic Republic, Karolos Papoulias, who subsequently went on to meet with Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, accompanied by Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, secretary for Relations with States.

The cordial discussions, an expression of the existing good relations between the Holy See and Greece, focused on issues of common interest, such as, in particular, the legal status of religious communities, the role of religion in society, and ecumenical collaboration.

Attention then turned to the social consequences of the worldwide economic crisis, as well as the contribution of Greece within the European Union. Finally, concern was expressed regarding the future presence of Christians in the Middle East, in relation to political instability and the situations of conflict that affect various regions of the world.
Note with Greece, they mentioned the good relations between the Holy See and Greece (no such mention of good relations with the United States :bigyikes:). Note that economic issues *were *discussed with the President of Greece. No mention of that being discussed with the President of the US. Note that several areas of common interest were discussed with the President of Greece…and that those areas of common interest were prominently mentioned in that communiqué; the only area of commonality with the President of the US seemed to be added as an afterthought.

The contrast is STARK. There is a message there. :hmmm:
 
Lormar said:
This is being sincerely asked.

Can someone tell me the point of these seemingly meaningless visits?
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Hi Lomar. It’s a fair question.

My humble response would be that powerful bodies such as the Church and the U.S. can shape the world, especially so if they use their different resources in collaboration for the same end.

I would also assume it is diplomatic practice for any strong disagreements not to be published. Even on topics of disagreement it is a chance to have a frank discussion and see if there aren’t any possible ways forward.

Talking in person frankly and openly is much better than through hearsay and a succession of diplomats.

I know with other international diplomatic meetings that there is one set for the cameras between leaders and another more robust and detailed meeting in private. I assume it is the same here.
 
American Catholics should send a prayer of thanks to the Pope for his comment to Obama on religious freedom. He stuck up for us! Let’s just hope the Supreme Court will do the same - I fear that one is quite a bit more iffy. :o
 
Brendan_64 said:
It is not the person who is the Pope that you bow to, it is the office of Pope that you bow to. Personal humility doesn’t come into it. You bow because of what the person represents.
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Well you should tell Pope Francis this who doesn’t seem to get too uptight about pomp and ceremony, yes I see what your getting at, but then again Jesus washed the Apostles feet !
 
It would appear that Obama got what he wanted: a photo op with him and the Pope smiling and looking cordial - that he could parlay into support for his economic policies and Catholic votes for the upcoming mid-terms.

Ishii
 
Slaney said:
Well you should tell Pope Francis this who doesn’t seem to get too uptight about pomp and ceremony, yes I see what your getting at, but then again Jesus washed the Apostles feet !
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I don’t think it’s a matter of ‘getting uptight’.

I bow to the Eucharist at mass, I’m not thinking of it as pomp and ceremony or myself as uptight, but an act of respect, thankfulness and reverence.

I would agree with you that there is no need for Obama to act this way with the Pope unless of course it reflects his feelings towards the Pope.

If this is in fact the case, then the Pope has received a warm gesture and I’m sure would feel grateful.

I think we both agree that such a gesture should not be demanded, but then it should be received warmly if it is offered. It can only really be seen as pomp and ceremony and ‘uptightness’ if in fact the gesture is not given from the heart.
 
Slaney said:
Well you should tell Pope Francis this who doesn’t seem to get too uptight about pomp and ceremony, yes I see what your getting at, but then again Jesus washed the Apostles feet !
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And has Pope Francis ever requested that people do not bow to his office? No.

It isn’t about Pope Francis, it is about the office of Pope. This ‘cult of Pope Francis’ is quite unhealthy. Pope Francis is not special, he is a Pope just like all his predecessors, no more, or no less special. It is his office that matters, not him.
 
In attendance at the encounter between the president and Cardinal Parolin was US Secretary of Defense John Kerry, US ambassador to the Holy See Ken Hackett, US National Security Officer Susan Rice and Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi.
 
Thank you for sharing this synopsis of the visit. It was refreshing to read, especially after being subjected to the rantings of a crazy person on youtube who is convinced of sinister things involving the Pope and the President. WOW! Where do people come up with these crazy theories and then who do they think they are to spread their theories as though they’re gospel truth? I appreciate hearing about the visit in sane recollection of the events. Again, thank you. 👍
 
Am I the only one who, at a first glance at the thread title, thought: Pope Obama???:confused:
😃
 
ishii said:
It would appear that Obama got what he wanted: a photo op with him and the Pope smiling and looking cordial - that he could parlay into support for his economic policies and Catholic votes for the upcoming mid-terms.

Ishii
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Have to agree with this !
 
abucs said:
I would agree with you that there is no need for Obama to act this way with the Pope unless of course it reflects his feelings towards the Pope.
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Well it doesn’t reflect his feelings, does the Pope approve of gay marriage, ABORTION ! it seems he is latching on-to someone who has more approval than him worldwide & that wouldn’t be hard, it’s a case off if you can’t beat them join them !
 
Brendan_64 said:
And has Pope Francis ever requested that people do not bow to his office? No.

It isn’t about Pope Francis, it is about the office of Pope. This ‘cult of Pope Francis’ is quite unhealthy. Pope Francis is not special, he is a Pope just like all his predecessors, no more, or no less special. It is his office that matters, not him.
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I think I see your point.

But if it’s true, then the same can be said for President of the U.S. and it all comes down to a discussion between two leaders with two different personal ideologies, speaking different languages. But based on the media’s spin on things, are they that different? It seems only astute observers can identify those differences. And that’s my observation.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I imagine from Obama’s standpoint, he hopes to make people think that his own “income redistribution” is what the Pope has in mind when he talks about inequities in the world.

Never mind that Obama is talking almost exclusively about reshuffling income among members of the middle class, while the Pope is talking about the severe poverty in other parts of the world.

From the Pope’s standpoint, it’s probably one of those diplomatic things the Vatican does when heads of state want to visit. And (who knows?) he might have really wanted to cause Obama to start worrying about his own soul. A little pastoral counseling never hurts.
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I am in a study group on the Pope’s book now. It has us wondering what the Pope is talking about and I have heard this book was poorly translated, I sure hope so since it sounds more like what Obama would say than the Pope.

The Vatican translator might be just a bit liberal and transcribed it that way, at least a person who knows the Pope’s native language says a lot of what the Pope says is not translated right and he thinks that is what happened to the things the Pope says.
 
The wooden seed chest was made from recycled pews used by nuns back in the old days. Robert S. Reier, the Baltimore basilica’s operations manager, collected about three pounds of wood at the request of the U.S. State Department
in early March. It was “salvaged from mahogany pews that once stood in the sisters’ gallery, where Carmelites attended Mass behind a drawn curtain.”
In return the Pope gave the President a couple of medals and a copy of his apostolic exhortation “The Joy of the Gospel.”

Curiously, in the middle of it all, the metal presentation stand being used to prop up the gifts repeatedly gave way and went crashing to the floor, drawing horrified expressions from the Vatican’s protocol monsignors and even “a look” from the President himself. Eventually, aides gave up on using the table and apparently weren’t able to prop up the respective gifs.
from an article in Remnant Newspaper by Remnant Guy

Perhaps this was a sign that God was not pleased with one or both of the gifts? Sort of like
the lightning striking the Vatican steeple the day Pope Benedict resigned?

Or maybe just a coinky-dink.
 
ishii said:
It would appear that Obama got what he wanted: a photo op with him and the Pope smiling and looking cordial - that he could parlay into support for his economic policies and Catholic votes for the upcoming mid-terms.

Ishii
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I looked at the official picture and the pope nowhere was smiling. Obama has a huge smile and his head is up but pope francis gives a big contrast. Pope Francis has a face that well … Reflects that the pope is either aggravated or unhappy for not saying other things. Pope Francis does not look cordial n the picture at all, in fact the impression he gave me was the one of a person thinking can someone get this guy out of here.
 
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