Pope on Jesus' redemption for all, inc atheists

[Jonatello]

This is not a respectful way to talk about God or the Bible, please respect the feelings of those of us who believe the Bible is the Word of God.

And I dont think this conversation is going anywhere, so I’ll bow out now.

i’m not talking about God, i’m talking about a false representation of Him

 

[jwinch2]

i’m not talking about God, i’m talking about a false representation of Him

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds to me as if you are suggesting that the Church, through her Tradition, has falsely represented God.

Do you think that you could clarify your statement? I don’t wish to misunderstand you.

 

[vames]

You have to somehow manipulate your thoughts into believing something whether or not you’ve actually been genuinely convinced of it. And before that, you have to make sure to pick the right set of religious beliefs to do this mental trick with. I’ll pick Door 3, Catholicism, for all the marbles please.

God cannot be so trivial and cruel

I think you just summarized the stance of Inquisition towards heretics. No wonder that hell was then depicted like a torture dungeon where unbelievers were sent to be burned and dismembered by devils armed with forks.

 

[jwinch2]

“But the Christian identity is not an identity card: Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these belonged to the Church, the Mother Church. Because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: ‘Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy.’ And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful”. Pope Francis

 

[Jonatello]

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds to me as if you are suggesting that the Church, through her Tradition, has falsely represented God.

Do you think that you could clarify your statement? I don’t wish to misunderstand you.

maybe She has, maybe She hasn’t. There are Catholic scholars who debate many of the fine and not-so-fine points of these things. As a Catholic, I look at Her allowance for the possibility of apokatastasis (as well as other aspects of the Church) as indication that She does not represent God as the trivial petty pubescent that many individual Catholics make Him out to be.

 

[Jonatello]

I think you just summarized the stance of Inquisition towards heretics. No wonder that hell was then depicted like a torture dungeon where unbelievers were sent to be burned and dismembered by devils armed with forks.

yeah, and wow good reminder…that must have been an utterly horrific time, even for Catholics

 

[Jonatello]

“But the Christian identity is not an identity card: Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these belonged to the Church, the Mother Church. Because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: ‘Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy.’ And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful”. Pope Francis

the word “Church” means different things at different times though

sometimes it means “set of beliefs”
sometimes it means “institution”
sometimes it means “building of worship”
sometimes it means “the collective of faithful people” ie: “we are the church, we are the body of Christ”
sometimes the body of Christ means the church, sometimes it means us, sometimes it means the Eucharist, etc

That statement can be interpreted many ways

 

[graciew]

Hello! I basically understand this entire homily and what it means except one part where he says:

Does anybody have context as to what “there” is? Heaven? Some sort of hypothetical agreement/friendship?

He is using the same word,“there” he used in a previous sentence. He said “…if we do good to others,if we meet there…”.
He is refering to common ground.“Doing good”. He is talking about peace.Solidarity/Service is often common ground for this encounter. It seems to me he is speaking in very earthly and practical terms.
Is this what you were asking?

 

[Vouthon]

Regardless of what the Holy Father meant by this particular address, it is Catholic doctrine that atheists can receive salvation in Christ while not explicitly believing in him. We have a doctrine of baptism by implicit desire. It is possible that the Holy Father might be implying this. We don’t know how many fall into that category, so lets hope for the maximum number if we are genuinely good people. What we do know is that this does happen and that God wills to save everyone, even if that salvation needs to be accommodated to their erroneous but sincere conscience and circumstances.

“…Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life…”

***- Vatican II [Lumen Gentium 16] ***

It is also stated in the Vatican II document Gaudium et Spes and reiterated in the Catechism that believers can be the cause of atheism because of the way they represent the faith, as a previous poster indicated:

“…The word atheism is applied to phenomena which are quite distinct from one another. For while God is expressly denied by some, others believe that man can assert absolutely nothing about Him…Again some form for themselves such a fallacious idea of God that when they repudiate this figment they are by no means rejecting the God of the Gospel. Some never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they should trouble themselves about religion. Moreover, atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world, or from the absolute character with which certain human values are unduly invested, and which thereby already accords them the stature of God. Modern civilization itself often complicates the approach to God not for any essential reason but because it is so heavily engrossed in earthly affairs…believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion…”

***- Gaudium et Spes (PASTORAL CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH IN THE MODERN WORLD), 1965 ***

“…The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions.** For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation**…”

***- Blessed Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (1990) ***

 

[HHCXVII]

The reaction of some Atheists to this is actually quite surprising! I don’t know if any of you know Reddit, but some people said they started to like the Pope and respect the faith even more, just because of Pope Francis’ statement.

 

[Lucky7]

the word “Church” means different things at different times though

sometimes it means “set of beliefs”
sometimes it means “institution”
sometimes it means “building of worship”
sometimes it means “the collective of faithful people” ie: “we are the church, we are the body of Christ”
sometimes the body of Christ means the church, sometimes it means us, sometimes it means the Eucharist, etc

That statement can be interpreted many ways

But in the homily jwinch quoted the Pope also said:

Let us ask the Lord for this parrhesia, this apostolic fervour which impels us to move forward, as brothers and sisters, all of us: forward! Forward, bearing the name of Jesus in the bosom of holy Mother Church, as Saint Ignatius said, hierarchical and Catholic. Amen.

But you’re right. It would be much clearer if he said “The Catholic Church” so there would be no ambiguity. Having said that, this homily is the one I think back to when I read homilies like the one in the OP. Talk about ambiguity.

I’m shocked that the mainstream media is reporting this the way they are and it is the reason why I keep harping on the lack of clarity in our Church. I see it over and over and over.

 

[Lucky7]

The reaction of some Atheists to this is actually quite surprising! I don’t know if any of you know Reddit, but some people said they started to like the Pope and respect the faith even more, just because of Pope Francis’ statement.

But why? Do they think that this Pope (as opposed to that meany Pope Benedict and all of the others before him) thinks they are saved? If so, then they are basing their opinions on a falsehood.

 

[Lucky7]

Oh and wheeee! On a secular website I have Bible only, protestant Christians telling us that redemption=salvation.

I sure hope the Pope follows up with another homily to clear up misconceptions.

 

[brian614]

But why? Do they think that this Pope (as opposed to that meany Pope Benedict and all of the others before him) thinks they are saved? If so, then they are basing their opinions on a falsehood.

I don’t think they think they will be saved (since they do not believe in an afterlife)

I would assume that this is refreshing for those atheists that try to live a moral life (granted by their own standards) As opposed to hearing that they are damned or that they are horrible people. In my opinion when non-believers hear how they are lost from some Christians it comes off as all Christians believe they are holier than though and many end up looking like hypocrites…

I think this may have many non faithful take a second look at our Church. Or at least I hope and pray that is the case.

Remember Christ came for the sick, went after the lost sheep, and all of heaven rejoices when one sinner repents. I really do hope this bears fruit

 

[kag1982]

But why? Do they think that this Pope (as opposed to that meany Pope Benedict and all of the others before him) thinks they are saved? If so, then they are basing their opinions on a falsehood.

Atheists don’t want to be saved or believe in an afterlife. They just like the fact that the Pope seems open to and welcoming of them. Which frankly is a good thing. I like the fact that Francis has quite a bit of good will built up among people outside the Church, even atheists.

As for the doctrine itself, I do think that there are atheists closer to salvation than people who profess to be Catholic. I think that it is instructive to frame Francis’ homilies from his Latin American perspective. All the Argentine military dictators professed to be good Catholics. They all went to Mass on Sunday and then went back to torturing and brutally killing junta opponents. These people professed to believe in God but the most certainly did not. A peaceful activist bring tortured by the junta who was say trying to protect workers or indigenous people would have a greater chance at salvation than a general ordering the disappearances.

 

[jwinch2]

the word “Church” means different things at different times though

sometimes it means “set of beliefs”
sometimes it means “institution”
sometimes it means “building of worship”
sometimes it means “the collective of faithful people” ie: “we are the church, we are the body of Christ”
sometimes the body of Christ means the church, sometimes it means us, sometimes it means the Eucharist, etc

That statement can be interpreted many ways

In the same address the Holy Father spoke of obedience to the magesterium of the Church. In addition, there is nothing in Pope Paul VI’s address, which Pope Francis was quoting, to indicate that he meant anything other than the Catholic Church.

 

[vames]

I think that it is instructive to frame Francis’ homilies from his Latin American perspective. All the Argentine military dictators professed to be good Catholics. They all went to Mass on Sunday and then went back to torturing and brutally killing junta opponents. These people professed to believe in God but the most certainly did not. A peaceful activist bring tortured by the junta who was say trying to protect workers or indigenous people would have a greater chance at salvation than a general ordering the disappearances.

Good point. No wonder that in this very context, the Pope commented on the false idea of “killing in the name of God”.

Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.

 

[fnr]

Atheists don’t want to be saved or believe in an afterlife. They just like the fact that the Pope seems open to and welcoming of them. Which frankly is a good thing. I like the fact that Francis has quite a bit of good will built up among people outside the Church, even atheists.

I love that the Pope is speaking evangelically in love to those whom many Catholics and other Christians view as anathema.

Remember, faith is the HOW of our salvation. New creation is the WHY of our salvation, and that involves the entire cosmos, and every person, creature, and thing in it. It seems like the Reformation made a lot of Christians forget that!

Romans 8:
“18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us. 19 For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God; 20 for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now; 23 and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?”
Christ was given sovereignty over all powers and nations (Matthew 28). He left it to us to live the kingdom (John 17). Ecclesiology is eschatology (Matthew 16).

Speaking practically, we often confront those with whom we disagree with argument and thought, where love and empathy is more often what we need. In my experience, quite a few atheists (but not all) have been hurt by religion, and reject God for the actions of people who assume his name. That’s not all (e.g., Richard Dawkins), but it’s quite a few.

As for the doctrine itself, I do think that there are atheists closer to salvation than people who profess to be Catholic. I think that it is instructive to frame Francis’ homilies from his Latin American perspective. All the Argentine military dictators professed to be good Catholics. They all went to Mass on Sunday and then went back to torturing and brutally killing junta opponents. These people professed to believe in God but the most certainly did not. A peaceful activist bring tortured by the junta who was say trying to protect workers or indigenous people would have a greater chance at salvation than a general ordering the disappearances.

1 Corinthians 13:
“1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.”
1 John 2:
“9 Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall. 11 Whoever hates his brother is in darkness; he walks in darkness and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.”
Matthew 25, second half. The whole sheep and goats story.

We are obliged to reach out to atheists, to let them know that they’re living in the Kingdom of God, right here, right now, and that love is the law of the land. In like fashion, we need to let those who would kill in God’s name that that’s not OK. All that pro-killing business is a product of post-Milvian Bridge strain of Latin theology, including Augustine and more recently, Luther (who actually advocated princes killing heretics). But that’s NOT what Jesus said about the Kingdom.

Just some thoughts from a liberal theocrat.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Excerpt from Fr Zuhldorf’s blog:

If you go through his comments as reported, and I did, there is nothing in Pope Francis’s remarks about the possibility of atheists being saved that is not in keeping with the document Dominus Iesus.

In a nutshell, Francis was not talking about non-Catholics or non-Christians. He was not talking about those who profess another religion with their own mediators. He was not talking about those who pray to other gods. He was talking about atheists.

Moreover, Francis was clear that whatever graces are offered to atheists (such that they may be saved) are from Christ. He was clear that salvation is only through Christ’s Sacrifice. In other words, he is not suggesting – and I think some are taking it this way – that you can be saved, get to heaven, without Christ.

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/05/pope-francis-on-the-possibility-of-salvation-for-atheists

 

[scipio337]

Never take a religion article from HufPo seriously, they’re about as biased as you can get.

+100. Just do a news search for “Francis atheist”. You’ll see articles like “Pope Francis says atheists can be good” - The Guardian

Pope Francis: Being an atheist is alright as long as you do good
The Independent‎

Only HuffPo comes up with such pablum. Hasn’t there been a ruling on it not being a “news” site? If not, I’m going to start using FreeRepublic and WorldNet Daily for “news” stories.

Oh, and stay away from the HuffPo comments section. It’s absolutely toxic.