Pope on Jesus' redemption for all, inc atheists

[Abu]

Ranting and raving is useless, and unless and until you listen to Christ through His Church you shall be in the wilderness of confusion and error. “Judge not that you be not judged.” (Mt 7:1).

God will judge the guilt and innocence of everyone, believers and atheists, because the evidence of His creation and natural law are, as St Paul affirms, available for all.

All societies agree on condemning murder, stealing etc. – as well as the fact that most atheists do not support murder, stealing etc. Where many fail is in neglecting the fact of reason which, for instance, shows that the fetus is human, and abortion therefore is murder. But, then many also neglect the facts of God’s existence known from reason alone.

Atheists who follow their consciences and try to learn and to do what is true and good have the opportunity for salvation.

 

[Abu]

Listen to the Church for reality.
Jesus has redeemed us – opened heaven for us, because of His Life, Crucifixion and Resurrection which was closed because of the first sin of Adam and Eve.

Salvation, – the attainment of heaven, is obtained by forming and following our consciences, learning and doing what is taught by Christ’s Church as far as we are able.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Hello! I basically understand this entire homily and what it means except one part where he says:

Does anybody have context as to what “there” is? Heaven? Some sort of hypothetical agreement/friendship?

By the “we’ll meet there” line…my understanding of that comment is that we (Christians) and they (athiests) will meet at the point where we are trying to “do good.” and work from there.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Will someone please explain the difference between ‘redemption’ and ‘salvation’ to me?

I looked up the definitions for both and they sound the same to me

Since some of you are saying there’s a distinction, help me out with the distinction?

Jesus, by redeeming mankind, made individual salvation possible for each person.

We are redeemed, believer and non-believer, but to participate in the fruits of that redemption, we need to “work out our [personal] salvation in fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).

Salvation is not automatic, nor just a matter of belief. (“I accepted Jesus as my Savior; therefore I’m saved.”) Salvation is the individual’s journey toward life in Christ, by which he consciously unites himself to Jesus in HIs person and His precepts. Each person’s salvation is unique to that soul.

We each have the potential to share in the universality of Christ’s redemption.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Atheists who follow their consciences and try to learn and to do what is true and good have the opportunity for salvation.

Absolutely.

It’s always important to remember that the graces and supports which result from any church membership or theistic community bring with that greater responsibility on the part of the member/believer, than someone who is not so graced. Those who do have a conviction that “a God exists,” and further, those who have the benefits of sacraments, teaching, scripture, prayer, and community, will be held respectively to higher standards than those who behave morally without these supports or this sure conviction of a guiding and benevolent God.

 

[_Abyssinia]

If Atheists Can Go to Heaven, Why Bother with Faith?

Pope Francis’ comments yesterday about faith, atheism, and salvation have apparently struck a chord: They made headlines and were, for a time, the second most-shared item on Reddit. In his homily on Mark 9:38-40, the pope said:

The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. “But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.” Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. . . .

The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! “Father, the atheists?” Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. . . . “But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!” But do good: we will meet one another there.

While some news reports suggested that these remarks are a departure from the theology of Pope Benedict, in reality Francis’ predecessor had made similar attempts to reach out to non-believers.

In fact, in one homily long prior to his papacy, then-Fr. Joseph Ratzinger had answered from the Christian perspective precisely the question that Pope Francis’ homily raised (if less reverently) in some circles of skeptics yesterday: If non-believers can go to heaven, why bother with faith at all? As Ratzinger said in that 1964 homily, the question we struggle with is not whether God can save people outside the Church (for we know that he can). Rather:

The question that torments us is . . . why, if there are so many other ways to heaven and to salvation, should it still be demanded of us that we bear, day by day, the whole burden of ecclesiastical dogma and ecclesiastical ethics? . . .

If we are raising the question of the basis and meaning of our life as Christians . . . then this can easily conceal a sidelong glance at what we suppose to be the easier and more comfortable life of other people, who will “also” get to heaven.

We are too much like the workers taken on in the first hour whom the Lord talks about in his parable of the workers in the vineyard (Mt 20:1-6). When they realized that the day’s wage of one denarius could be much more easily earned, they could no longer see why they had sweated all day. . . .

But the parable is not there on account of those workers at that time; it is there for our sake. For in our raising questions about the “why” of Christianity, we are doing just what those workers did. We are assuming that spiritual “unemployment”—a life without faith or prayer—is more pleasant than spiritual service. Yet how do we know that?

We are staring at the trials of everyday Christianity and forgetting on that account that faith is not just a burden that weighs us down; it is at the same time a light that brings us counsel, gives us a path to follow, and gives us meaning. We are seeing in the Church only the exterior order that limits our freedom and thereby overlooking the fact that she is our spiritual home, which shields us, keeps us safe in life and in death. We are seeing only our own burden and forgetting that other people also have burdens, even if we know nothing of them.

And above all, what a strange attitude that actually is, when we no longer find Christian service worthwhile if the denarius of salvation may be obtained even without it! **It seems as if we want to be rewarded, not just with our own salvation, but most especially with other people’s damnation—just like the workers hired in the first hour. That is very human, but the Lord’s parable is particularly meant to make us quite aware of how profoundly un-Christian it is at the same time**. Anyone who looks on the loss of salvation for others as the condition, as it were, on which he serves Christ will in the end only be able to turn away grumbling, because that kind of reward is contrary to the loving-kindness of God.

h/t Matthew Healey

 

[kingal86]

Oh seems to be a longer thread on this now in Traditional Catholicism:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=789831

 

[Sirach2]

Oh seems to be a longer thread on this now in Traditional Catholicism:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=789831

As an agnostic, how has this affected you, if at all?

 

[Kamaduck]

Yes, what he said is theologically accurate, Jesus died for the sake of sins of all (inlcuding atheists) and in doing so redeemed all, in the sense that we are all children of God. The distinction is between redemption, which has occurred for all, and salvation, which only occurrs through Christ. People will jump on this because they don’t know (or want to deliberatly obscure) the difference between redemption and salvation.

Breathes massive sigh of relief

My (protestant) religion teacher told us yesterday that the pope declared that everybody who did good works would be saved, regardless of whether they believe in Jesus (and then looked pointedly at me, since he knows I’m catholic). Then he started talking about how the catholic church has completely thrown the Bible and its own theology out the window. I knew he couldn’t be right about whatever the pope said, but I had no idea what to say.

I’m glad to see that it doesn’t conflict with previous teachings.

 

[Kamaduck]

Did Pope Francis Say That Atheists Can Get to Heaven by Good Works? by Jimmy Akin

jimmyakin.com/2013/05/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works.html

Thanks for posting this, it clears everything up for me.

 

[Tigg]

My (protestant) religion teacher told us yesterday that the pope declared that everybody who did good works would be saved, regardless of whether they believe in Jesus (and then looked pointedly at me, since he knows I’m catholic). Then he started talking about how the catholic church has completely thrown the Bible and its own theology out the window. I knew he couldn’t be right about whatever the pope said, but I had no idea what to say.

and here, as many have already pointed out, lies the problem. The perception of non-Catholics who might have been led by grace toward the Church, might now say, “there’s no need!”

 

[irishpatrick]

While the Pope’s words are not binding, and they are not infallible, they have made an impact, and yet at the same time they are enormously confusing in light of revealed truth. It would be nie if our Holy father would clarify his remarks.

God can save anyone He pleases, we all know that. Yet, the Pope’s remarks bring ambiguity into the Catholic religion at a time it seems to need the exact opposite.

It is an amazing set of words, because many Catholics have argued for centuries that faith without good works is an empty faith, and that it takes both to be saved. Yet, the Pope’s remarks seem to not acknowledge the faith aspect at all, rather his words seem to say that anyone who does good will be saved.

 

[irishpatrick]

and here, as many have already pointed out, lies the problem. The perception of non-Catholics who might have been led by grace toward the Church, might now say, “there’s no need!”

Each person bears the personal responsibility to learn more. The Pope was NOT speaking about salvation or Heaven.

We are called to make the world better, we are called to seek peace, we cannot attain peace unless people from all walks of life pursue doing good (not for the sake of personal reward, yet for the sake of doing what is the proper thing to do).

The Pope is spot on, as usual, and his comments are being twisted by the media.

 

[Harry1941]

Ranting and raving is useless, and unless and until you listen to Christ through His Church you shall be in the wilderness of confusion and error. “Judge not that you be not judged.” (Mt 7:1).

God will judge the guilt and innocence of everyone, believers and atheists, because the evidence of His creation and natural law are, as St Paul affirms, available for all.

All societies agree on condemning murder, stealing etc. – as well as the fact that most atheists do not support murder, stealing etc. Where many fail is in neglecting the fact of reason which, for instance, shows that the fetus is human, and abortion therefore is murder. But, then many also neglect the facts of God’s existence known from reason alone.

Atheists who follow their consciences and try to learn and to do what is true and good have the opportunity for salvation.

I must correct myself, when I post that all Atheists are condemn, Every person has a will and understanding. If they are evil, their will is close up, but not the understanding. If the understanding is close up, they would not be a person, but an animal.Animals don’t have a will and understanding.They don’t live forever like us, The angels also have a will and understanding, I read in one of Swedenborg’s books that an unbeliever can be educated by the wisest angels, if the person had no interested in doing evil.

Harry:wave:

 

[_Abyssinia]

Pope Francis knows the difference between redemption and salvation. Do you?

Secularists and believers alike seem confused by the recent words of Pope Francis when he affirmed that all people, even atheists, are redeemed:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!"

Despite what one might conclude after reading the flurry of frenzied headlines that followed, the Holy Father was saying nothing new; the fact that Jesus Christ redeemed the world is age-old, standard Christian teaching. Consider the prayers we traditionally use for the Stations of the Cross:

We adore you, O Christ, and we bless You, because by Your holy cross, **You have redeemed the world**.

Yes, the whole world – which includes all atheists, all sinners, all people, even all things – was redeemed by the Blood of Christ that was shed for us on Calvary. Jesus paid the ransom (the word “redemption” literally means the “buying back” of a thing), and His atoning sacrifice opened the gates of Heaven, which had been previously closed to humanity due to Adam’s sin.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a **ransom for all**…."  1 Timothy 2:5-6

The Cross redeemed all. Bam!

But (and it’s a big but)… not everyone will choose to accept the redeeming love of God and its invitation to salvation. While God didn’t need our cooperation or permission to redeem us, without our cooperation and permission He will not save us. God is a gentleman, and He will not bring us into union with Him unless we desire that union. Redemption has come to all of us, thanks to Christ’s atoning work on the Cross approximately 2,000 years ago, but salvation is an individual choice that we each must make, a gift that we can accept or reject even up to our dying breath.

So when Pope Francis said that everyone is redeemed, even atheists, he was correct! It’s a basic Christian tenet taught by Scripture, Tradition, and every pope before him – but one that implies nothing about any individual’s salvation. I wish that more journalists (and more Christians) were well-versed in the basics of the Faith, but the buzz and controversy gives us an opportunity to teach and clarify these truths for the world.

+++++++

For an even better explanation, check out Brandon Vogt’s article on StrangeNotions.com:

Did Pope Francis Really Say All Atheists are Redeemed?

 

[Carlan]

strangenotions.com/atheists-redeemed/?utm_content=buffere9f7f&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_source=buffer

*…Christ’s redemptive sacrifice on the Cross is not the same thing as salvation. Salvation is the result of accepting Christ’s redemption and applying it to our lives. Catholics know that Christ died for our sins but that we must receive that free gift by trusting in him, accepting his proposal of love, and following him with our life.

So while it’s true that Christ redeemed all people, even atheists, that doesn’t mean all atheists have accepted this gift or will be saved.*

jwinch2, what you post here is the truth, God stands by everyone always offering actual grace for sinners to accept the redemption Christ’s death on the cross won for us.So we must never give up praying for all God’s children to accept the gift of Christ’s redemption.
Peace, Carlan

 

[jwinch2]

jwinch2, what you post here is the truth, God stands by everyone always offering actual grace for sinners to accept the redemption Christ’s death on the cross won for us.So we must never give up praying for all God’s children to accept the gift of Christ’s redemption.
Peace, Carlan

Peace Carlan. I did not write that article, but I agree with its conclusions.

God Bless,

 

[Jonatello]

If the understanding is close up, they would not be a person, but an animal.Animals don’t have a will and understanding.They don’t live forever like us,

say what? Its quite a leap to go from “a person doesn’t understand/perceive the truth about God” to “they’re an animal”

and what do you mean by close up? closed up? You mean if someone genuinely doesn’t believe something is true, they are automatically just closed minded?

And btw is it Catholic dogma that there will be no birds etc in Heaven? I missed that lesson.