Pope, Orthodox Patriarch join in prayer

[Hesychios]

I doubt it. The reasons for the schism between the Orthodox and the RCC is unrelated to the reasons for the Reformation. The earlier split was largely a power struggle, though of course it had and/or developed theological overtones. The Reformation was first-and-foremost a theological parting of ways, though of course political power struggles played a part in sustaining the reforming impulse. Moreover: most Protestants, to the extent that they know anything about Eastern Orthodoxy at all, already think of it as no better than Roman Catholicism–and in many ways much worse.

A unification of the Eastern and Western Churches, if it happened, MIGHT accelerate the rate of individual Protestants, as is already happening. (These conversions have become so numerous among certain leading Protestant intellectuals that even the Christian Research Journal has expressed concern about the trend). But Protestant denominations would mostly remain unaffected. To reunify Protestants will mainly be a long hard slog of persuading people one-by-one.

This is the most sensible and realistically unbiased comment on the subject I have read to date.

 

[scott1228]

jd, that’s right, in all of the writings of St. Thomas, I never once saw him discuss that…

 

[valient_Lucy]

I doubt it. The reasons for the schism between the Orthodox and the RCC is unrelated to the reasons for the Reformation. The earlier split was largely a power struggle, though of course it had and/or developed theological overtones. The Reformation was first-and-foremost a theological parting of ways, though of course political power struggles played a part in sustaining the reforming impulse. Moreover: most Protestants, to the extent that they know anything about Eastern Orthodoxy at all, already think of it as no better than Roman Catholicism–and in many ways much worse.

A unification of the Eastern and Western Churches, if it happened, MIGHT accelerate the rate of individual Protestants, as is already happening. (These conversions have become so numerous among certain leading Protestant intellectuals that even the Christian Research Journal has expressed concern about the trend). But Protestant denominations would mostly remain unaffected. To reunify Protestants will mainly be a long hard slog of persuading people one-by-one.

I agree with Hesychios that this is one of the best posts on this subject. Some Protestants may be persuaded by a reunification, but others will also see it as an act of Satan. Some might not care one way or the other. It depends on the Protestant, and how they already view the Catholic Church.

 

[Aramis]

I agree with Hesychios that this is one of the best posts on this subject. Some Protestants may be persuaded by a reunification, but others will also see it as an act of Satan. Some might not care one way or the other. It depends on the Protestant, and how they already view the Catholic Church.

And the Orthodox Church, too. Many protestants I’ve met are more opposed to the Russian Orthodox than to the Catholics. But then, I live in a state with about equal numbers of Catholics and Orthodox.

 

[valient_Lucy]

And the Orthodox Church, too. Many protestants I’ve met are more opposed to the Russian Orthodox than to the Catholics. But then, I live in a state with about equal numbers of Catholics and Orthodox.

Yeah, I think location makes a difference. There don’t seem to be too many Orthodox Christians where I live. I myself only know 4 Orthodox Christians, and only know where one Orthodox parish is. The obvious result of this is that not many people (including myself) know too much about their beliefs. I overheard a Protestant ask an Orthodox Christian if they believed in the Real Presence. Since the Protestants don’t meet too many Orthodox where I live, or know too much about them, they tend not to think about them too much. As a result of that, some of them sometimes criticize the Catholic Church for believing in the Real Presence and for having images in their churches, but not criticize the Orthodox Christians for doing the same. Every once in a while I find that strange, but then I remind myself of the fact that there simply are more Catholics than Orthodox Christians so they don’t view them as much of a “threat.” Out of sight, out of mind I guess.

Of course, the disadvantage of not meeting Orthodox Christians is then whatever Protestants do hear about their beliefs could simply be through the grapevine, rather than based on what the Orthodox actually teach. At least the Protestant I referred to actually got to ask an Orthodox Christian what they believe about the Eucharist.

Obviously, a person’s views of Orthodoxy would affect how they view any reunion. But in my area, people don’t seem to have too many opinions about the Orthodox Church, simply because they don’t have meet many of them, and they don’t have to think too much about them.

 

[manualman]

I doubt it. The reasons for the schism between the Orthodox and the RCC is unrelated to the reasons for the Reformation. The earlier split was largely a power struggle, though of course it had and/or developed theological overtones. The Reformation was first-and-foremost a theological parting of ways, though of course political power struggles played a part in sustaining the reforming impulse. Moreover: most Protestants, to the extent that they know anything about Eastern Orthodoxy at all, already think of it as no better than Roman Catholicism–and in many ways much worse.
…

Two thoughts on a great post.

1. The evangelical protestants I used to know well in college would find as much significance in a reunion between Rome and Constantinople as we would in a merger between the Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses: not much!
2. Don’t underestimate the role power-struggle played in the Protestant Reformation. Hillaire Belloc makes a convincing case that greed for the lands owned by the Church and Monasteries and power-lust among the regional Lords played a greater role in creating what is called ‘the Reformation’ than the actual IDEAS of Luther or Zwingli. (Belloc’s book on the subject is “How the Reformation Happened” and is a great read!) He argues convincingly that a convergence of Imperial weakness, the Muslim threat, financial corruption in the clergy, vast wealth in Church hands and ambitious regional Lords were virtually a situation LOOKING for a reason to explode. Having read it, I’d say the Reformation was INITIALLY less about theology than the East-West schism was. Theological Protestantism came later as something that grew in the vacuum left by the eviction of the Church.

 

[Volodymyr]

RECONCILE WITH OLD CATOLICS

I am curious why Catolics are writing about union with Orthodox but never are mentioning union with Old Catolic Churches.

I believe Catolic church can go back in time reconnected to various churches and will then arrive at point where she can return to Orthodoxy.

Reconile first with Old Catolics - more appropriate definition of Bishop of Rome teaching role than infability. Why not consider this as first step?

 

[jam070406]

RECONCILE WITH OLD CATOLICS

I am curious why Catolics are writing about union with Orthodox but never are mentioning union with Old Catolic Churches.

I believe Catolic church can go back in time reconnected to various churches and will then arrive at point where she can return to Orthodoxy.

Reconile first with Old Catolics - more appropriate definition of Bishop of Rome teaching role than infability. Why not consider this as first step?

It has been said on here before (not sure where) that since the Old Catholics severed from the Truth of the Catholic Church they’ve fallen into errors such as women priests, amongst other things. Not sure if this is true. Maybe someone can verify but from what I saw it looked like the Old Catholics are far from orthodox. The only way they could become orthodox is to repent, seek forgiveness and come back to the Church. Maybe someone else can verify this though, it was awhile ago when this was discussed.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Who is Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople - why, or how, is he important in the Orthodox church?

 

[scott1228]

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I (Greek: Οικουμενικός Πατριάρχης Βαρθολομαίος Α, Turkish: Patrik I. Bartholomeos) (born 29 February 1940) is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and thus “first among equals” in the Eastern Orthodox Communion, since 2 November 1991. He is thus the spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox Christians around the world.

From Wikipedia.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Bartholomew_I_of_Constantinople

As a side note, I noticed he was born on February 29th. Does that mean he only gets a birthday every four years??

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I (Greek: Οικουμενικός Πατριάρχης Βαρθολομαίος Α, Turkish: Patrik I. Bartholomeos) (born 29 February 1940) is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and thus “first among equals” in the Eastern Orthodox Communion, since 2 November 1991. He is thus the spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox Christians around the world.

In the pre-schism days, how many “first amoung equals” were there?

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Pope, Orthodox Patriarch join in prayer

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=57058

What would happen if the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church were to reconcile? What it put pressure on the Protestants to reconcile as well?

Scott

Why should it? It is all according to whether or not the Orthodox should come under the UMBRELLA of Rome. If such a union should happen, and the Pope is overseer of all orthodoxy as well, than it would take years to bring about such a move,geo-politically. Imagine the Paperwork? Why are people so anxious to see such a union? The Pope is already shepherd over 1.6 billion Catholics,hasn’t he got enough head aches?Protestants and Catholics have had reconciling dialogs for years, that does not mean they have to unite under one roof. We can all talk with each other, pray with each other, and glorify the LORD with each other,but we do not have to pack up our belongings and move into Vatican proper.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Why should it? It is all according to whether or not the Orthodox should come under the UMBRELLA of Rome. If such a union should happen, and the Pope is overseer of all orthodoxy as well, than it would take years to bring about such a move,geo-politically. Imagine the Paperwork? Why are people so anxious to see such a union? The Pope is already shepherd over 1.6 billion Catholics,hasn’t he got enough head aches?Protestants and Catholics have had reconciling dialogs for years, that does not mean they have to unite under one roof. We can all talk with each other, pray with each other, and glorify the LORD with each other,but we do not have to pack up our belongings and move into Vatican proper.

Actually it does mean that for the Church that Jesus commissioned the Apostles to found and the one we are called to be apart of then yes we need to speak with a single voice. under a single banner. To be One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We do need to be united in a single faith. And since the seat of Authority was given to St Peter. and he became the Bishop of Rome and that his authority has been passed on through the line of the Bishop of Rome then yes we must all come to Look to the Vatican for guidance. Just as thing were prior to the schism some 1000 years ago.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Actually it does mean that for the Church that Jesus commissioned the Apostles to found and the one we are called to be apart of then yes we need to speak with a single voice. under a single banner. To be One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We do need to be united in a single faith. And since the seat of Authority was given to St Peter. and he became the Bishop of Rome and that his authority has been passed on through the line of the Bishop of Rome then yes we must all come to Look to the Vatican for guidance. Just as thing were prior to the schism some 1000 years ago.

For Centuries Christians have been divided, and yet they still have been able to glorify the LORD, “My sheep know My voice.” Not all who are under the banner of any given denomination of the Christian framework are the sheep, there are many goats. Or perhaps it is better said the weeks are growing with the crops and if you pull them up hastily you stand to pull out the crops before their time.The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ has long been United under the Umbrella of the Holy Spirit.Human kind is forever faction ed and divided. Look at the Jewish Community:Orthodox,Conservative,Reformed and Re-constructionist.What is divided in the flesh with us believers in Christ, is not necessarily divided in the Spirit! As for unity with the Orthodox, maybe in years to come, but it will not change the Spiritual caliper of the “crops” or the true Sheep, which is more than important to the LORD than numbers. Not that the LORD is willing that any should perish.Thank you for your reply!!!

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

For Centuries Christians have been divided, and yet they still have been able to glorify the LORD, “My sheep know My voice.” Not all who are under the banner of any given denomination of the Christian framework are the sheep, there are many goats. Or perhaps it is better said the weeks are growing with the crops and if you pull them up hastily you stand to pull out the crops before their time.The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ has long been United under the Umbrella of the Holy Spirit.Human kind is forever faction ed and divided. Look at the Jewish Community:Orthodox,Conservative,Reformed and Re-constructionist.What is divided in the flesh with us believers in Christ, is not necessarily divided in the Spirit! As for unity with the Orthodox, maybe in years to come, but it will not change the Spiritual caliper of the “crops” or the true Sheep, which is more than important to the LORD than numbers. Not that the LORD is willing that any should perish.Thank you for your reply!!!

Thank you for your most gracious reply. I agree that in the garden of Christ many weeds have appeared and if we were to go about pulling they out the harvest could be depleted as well.

That does not change that we should be working toward unity of the body of Christ. The division of the church is what has made for the easy growth of many false religions in the name of Christ. For the Orthodox to come back home and into communion with Rome would be a beacon that could start the unity of Protestants back as well. You will always have goats mixed in with the sheep as there is now with all this vast separation. I do feel that under the guidance of the and leader ship of the Pope keeping the goats in line is better kept in check.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Thank you for your most gracious reply. I agree that in the garden of Christ many weeds have appeared and if we were to go about pulling they out the harvest could be depleted as well.

That does not change that we should be working toward unity of the body of Christ. The division of the church is what has made for the easy growth of many false religions in the name of Christ. For the Orthodox to come back home and into communion with Rome would be a beacon that could start the unity of Protestants back as well. You will always have goats mixed in with the sheep as there is now with all this vast separation. I do feel that under the guidance of the and leader ship of the Pope keeping the goats in line is better kept in check.

Some Protestants.perhaps the Anglicans, varied Lutherans, and those who have a liturgical based Worship. But to say all Protestants,Evangelicals,Pentecostals(not the cults) to come to Rome as One Church, that is not ever going to happen, and should not happen! Spiritual understanding,love,working endeavors for the cause and love of Christ, fighting together against rigid political issues of our day(Abortion and Gay-rights) all possible, and that would be the unity which is favored by G O D, but the other unity of Physical union under Vatican is never possible!We can strive for spiritual objectiveness and working together to destroy the maladies of our planet.We should respect one another, and trust that the same LORD who redeemed us can complete what He started, in heaven and when Jesus returns, but a physical union would have to be forced, and that is inappropriate. Whereas in Christ and of those who are born of the Spirit of Christ there is that spiritual unity ALREADY, and that is the true Bride of Christ, which is to be soon WED to the Lord Jesus Christ,of course in His Time!! Have a nice day dear one!

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Yeah, I think location makes a difference. There don’t seem to be too many Orthodox Christians where I live. I myself only know 4 Orthodox Christians, and only know where one Orthodox parish is. The obvious result of this is that not many people (including myself) know too much about their beliefs. I overheard a Protestant ask an Orthodox Christian if they believed in the Real Presence. Since the Protestants don’t meet too many Orthodox where I live, or know too much about them, they tend not to think about them too much. As a result of that, some of them sometimes criticize the Catholic Church for believing in the Real Presence and for having images in their churches, but not criticize the Orthodox Christians for doing the same. Every once in a while I find that strange, but then I remind myself of the fact that there simply are more Catholics than Orthodox Christians so they don’t view them as much of a “threat.” Out of sight, out of mind I guess.

Of course, the disadvantage of not meeting Orthodox Christians is then whatever Protestants do hear about their beliefs could simply be through the grapevine, rather than based on what the Orthodox actually teach. At least the Protestant I referred to actually got to ask an Orthodox Christian what they believe about the Eucharist.

Obviously, a person’s views of Orthodoxy would affect how they view any reunion. But in my area, people don’t seem to have too many opinions about the Orthodox Church, simply because they don’t have meet many of them, and they don’t have to think too much about them.

Very practical conclusions, so true Protestants in general do not have a clue as to what Orthodoxy is all about. The Icons and elaborate worship services of the Orthodox do place them in same footing with the obvious Catholic liturgical masses. Many Protestants usually classify or lump as it were all the Orthodox and Roman Catholics(Eastern Catholics) in to the same package. Few know that the Orthodox(although sacramental) are strongly divided over certain issues of Papal infallibility,CERTAIN aspects of Mario logy, and that the Orthodox claim they were around before the Roman Catholics and so on.Nevertheless Protestants especially Evangelicals have no intention of ever coming under the umbrella of the Vatican, no matter what the Orthodox do. Unification of Catholicism with Orthodoxy would be considered in most evangelical’s opinion, as a move toward the World religion, and soon coming Mark of the Beast.Evangelicals which outnumber the mainline Protestants do not see the physical unity of Roman Catholicism and all non-Catholic Christians as God’s ultimate will for the Body of Christ.Of course the Orthodoxy is different ,and basically with their liturgies and sacramental observance,are more suited to a physical unity with Catholicism(Roman), also the Anglicans for the most part fall under that possibility.Anglicans to avoid a total submersion into the Episcopal Mess, could very easily be under the Auspices of Rome within the next 5 years!!!Have a nice day!

 

[Peter_J]

What would happen if the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church were to reconcile? What it put pressure on the Protestants to reconcile as well?

I’m sure the reaction would be mixed. Some Protestants would be more attracted to Catholicism/Orthodoxy; some would take the reconciliation as proof that Orthodoxy is as bad as they thought, or proof that Catholicism is as bad as they thought, or both. (When Catholic and Lutherans signed the “Joint declaration on the doctrine of justification” several years ago, a Fundamentalism (I’m guessing) Protestant publication reported it by saying the Catholics and Lutherans had gotten together and agree to abandon the Gospel. I didn’t see this publication, I only heard about it, so I can’t quote it precisely.) Some would fall in the middle of the spectrum.

But having said that, I also think that, taken overall, the effect on Protestants would be positive.

God bless,
Peter.

P.S. I’m very interested to hear responses to your question from Protestant posters.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Some Protestants.perhaps the Anglicans, varied Lutherans, and those who have a liturgical based Worship. But to say all Protestants,Evangelicals,Pentecostals(not the cults) to come to Rome as One Church, that is not ever going to happen, and should not happen! Spiritual understanding,love,working endeavors for the cause and love of Christ, fighting together against rigid political issues of our day(Abortion and Gay-rights) all possible, and that would be the unity which is favored by G O D, but the other unity of Physical union under Vatican is never possible!We can strive for spiritual objectiveness and working together to destroy the maladies of our planet.We should respect one another, and trust that the same LORD who redeemed us can complete what He started, in heaven and when Jesus returns, but a physical union would have to be forced, and that is inappropriate. Whereas in Christ and of those who are born of the Spirit of Christ there is that spiritual unity ALREADY, and that is the true Bride of Christ, which is to be soon WED to the Lord Jesus Christ,of course in His Time!! Have a nice day dear one!

I agree that a forced union would be wrong. That that reunion would be easier for some Protestant than others(Anglicans, Lutherans, etc…) than for others. That said if looking back over History it was only a little over 400 or so years that the Protestants have even been around. so to say that unity can not ans should not happen I believe is sad we as Christians did for the majority of the last 2000 years live in unity I think it could be done again.

 

[Frank_J]

Hello,

I’m Orthodox Christian and from what I see, it is impossible for Roman Catholic to humble themselves and acknowledge the Autocephaly and independence of the Orthodox.

The Pope would never give up what is need to bring the Churches together.

Maybe if Rome becomes a non-Christian country and the pope found himself encircled by a hostel religion, he may just change his mind.

Remember time is not on his hands here. Look at the number of births going on in Italy and all around Western Europe. It don’t look bright for western Christians. All one needs to do is read what is going on over there…