Pope, Orthodox Patriarch join in prayer

[Peter_J]

My question should be re-stated: Is calling M a r y the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, as (expounded by a french saint from Lisieux) to become dogma or a doctrine withing the Roman Catholic Church?

Do you have any evidence to suggest that it is going to become a dogma?

I think this would be a good topic for a new thread.

 

[Peter_J]

Dan, should I take it that you’re not going to answer my question, i.e.

So maybe those earlier Christians who didn’t see Hebrews as part of the bible hadn’t really embraced Jesus as their savior?

?

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Dan, should I take it that you’re not going to answer my question, i.e.

?

The writer of Hebrews is not clear,(author). sounds like the Apostle Paul at times. and for the most part many not all Christians today would be comfortable with the fact that Paul is the author of the epistle of the Hebrews. That could be the reason why early Christians were not ready to endorse the book. How did it end up in the canon of Scripture?I do not have an answer, history of course does record how each book made it into the compilation of the Bible.The book of Hebrews however is a document that really defines the Jewishness of the faith of the Apostles.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Do you have any evidence to suggest that it is going to become a dogma?

I think this would be a good topic for a new thread.

I can only go by what I heard. It sounds like the Catholics on EWTN have decided that Mary being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, is and should be part of the whole Marian movement in the Church: Mother of God,Immaculate Conception,Theotokos,ever-Virgin,(holy Assumption),Mediatrix of all graces,C0-Redemptorist,Queen of Heaven(Rev 12) and Spouse of the Holy Spirit.Titles of Mary!!

 

[Alethiaphile]

In the pre-schism days, how many “first amoung equals” were there?

One, the Bishop of Rome. The Patriarch of Constantinople was considered second. The Orthodox consider that the Bishop of Rome lost his status as first among equals when he officially proclaimed heretical doctrines (as they see it), especially the double procession of the Holy Spirit. Joe

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

One, the Bishop of Rome. The Patriarch of Constantinople was considered second. The Orthodox consider that the Bishop of Rome lost his status as first among equals when he officially proclaimed heretical doctrines (as they see it), especially the double procession of the Holy Spirit. Joe

Did you see the papal mass of the Pallium which invited the Archbishop of Constantinople Batholomew the first, and other Orthodox priests and bishops were present as well. Interesting Mass. Supposedly both Apostles Peter and Paul were honored.At the end of the mass the Orthodox, and the Pope went to bless the relic remains of St. Peter.Also it is noted that both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics will open a new chapter of dialogue , from this historic event, dialog for Unity. My question is this: I did not see the Patriarch nor his entourage taking Communion. They do believe in the actual presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Orthodox Eucharist don’t they?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

One, the Bishop of Rome. The Patriarch of Constantinople was considered second. The Orthodox consider that the Bishop of Rome lost his status as first among equals when he officially proclaimed heretical doctrines (as they see it), especially the double procession of the Holy Spirit. Joe

Perhaps that’s the difference between Catholics and Orthodox; Catholics believe “first amoung equals” means infallibility, whereas the Orthodox believe “first amoung equals” means being popular. :twocents:

 

[Alethiaphile]

My question is this: I did not see the Patriarch nor his entourage taking Communion. They do believe in the actual presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Orthodox Eucharist don’t they?

The Orthodox definitely believe in the Real Presence, but do not believe that there is enough agreement on doctrinal issues to share communion yet. One Romanian Orthodox bishop recently received communion at a Catholic Mass, and caught a lot of flack for it. Joe

 

[Alethiaphile]

whereas the Orthodox believe “first amoung equals” means being popular. :twocents:

Uh, no. There was (and is) real authority associated with being “first among equals”. If you really want to read a good (and short) book giving a contemporary Orthodox view of papal authority, read “You Are Peter” by Olivier Clement. Joe

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

The Orthodox definitely believe in the Real Presence, but do not believe that there is enough agreement on doctrinal issues to share communion yet. One Romanian Orthodox bishop recently received communion at a Catholic Mass, and caught a lot of flack for it. Joe

Thank you for your reply.Many Christians within Anglicanism,Lutheran and Episcopal believe in the Eucharist, as Roman Catholics. I would not doubt, that many have attended masses and partook, as they feel is their conscience.There is no one at churches policing who comes in, as to their affiliation, and denying them the right to partake, unless the person confronted a priest as he or she was up front to take the wafer. The priest would be in an awkward place, and naturally would have to decline giving the wafer. Some people have done that and complained the priest was rude, but they were rude to cause the priest that kind of disruption during mass, and especially during the Eucharistic part which is sacred.I knew a woman who went to the church I go to who did that, and when she complained to us about her behavior, we scolded her for causing the priest such grief(well she was kind of a misfit).The same woman was trying to join a vocational order of sisters, that were externs. She even wore a habit, which shocked us, as she had a daughter. She wanted to be a sister so bad. One time she went on a field trip with her daughter’s public school wearing the habit. You can only imagine how embarrassed the daughter was, let alone the teacher.Of course we wondered if she had mental problems!Finally I heard that the RCC she would attend wearing the habit finally dealt with her, denying her the right to attend their church, and of course told her if she wore the habit they would have to prosecute.There are quite a few Protestants who have a great loyalty to the Roman Church,especially regarding the Eucharist, and personally I think that they should just join the RCC!:

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

My question should be re-stated: Is calling M a r y the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, as (expounded by a french saint from Lisieux) to become dogma or a doctrine withing the Roman Catholic Church?I will give you a little background to my question. I was watching EWTN, the show Abundant Life, a woman host(forgot her name). A Catholic priest and the hostess along with another woman were speaking about a book that was titled:Spouse of the Holy Spirit. They were adamant about the fact that Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit as Queen of Heaven, and that the Holy Spirit will not fill an individual unless that person believes in Mary as stated in the Roman Church.They were not discussing the validity of such a concept but were encouraging the acceptance of such. I have seen other priests on EWTN expound on the Spouse of the Holy Spirit as well.

It sounds to me as it is there personal view I of no such doctrine (official or non official) that teaches this. M a r y the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. I could be wrong but it sounds to me as if they have taken doctrine of the church and developed a personal devotion and would like to see that spread. as I did not see this or hear them I can not really commit on what they said.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Did you see the papal mass of the Pallium which invited the Archbishop of Constantinople Batholomew the first, and other Orthodox priests and bishops were present as well. Interesting Mass. Supposedly both Apostles Peter and Paul were honored.At the end of the mass the Orthodox, and the Pope went to bless the relic remains of St. Peter.Also it is noted that both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics will open a new chapter of dialogue , from this historic event, dialog for Unity. My question is this: I did not see the Patriarch nor his entourage taking Communion. They do believe in the actual presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Orthodox Eucharist don’t they?

Yes they believe that the Eucharist is actually, the Body and Blood of Christ, but because of the separation of Catholics and Orthodox in most cases Member of one do not receive form the other. example:In case of pending near death and the person would not be able to reach a Priest form his or her Faith the sacraments maybe received for a priest of the other faith.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thank you for your reply.Many Christians within Anglicanism,Lutheran and Episcopal believe in the Eucharist, as Roman Catholics. I would not doubt, that many have attended masses and partook, as they feel is their conscience.There is no one at churches policing who comes in, as to their affiliation, and denying them the right to partake, unless the person confronted a priest as he or she was up front to take the wafer. The priest would be in an awkward place, and naturally would have to decline giving the wafer. Some people have done that and complained the priest was rude, but they were rude to cause the priest that kind of disruption during mass, and especially during the Eucharistic part which is sacred.I knew a woman who went to the church I go to who did that, and when she complained to us about her behavior, we scolded her for causing the priest such grief(well she was kind of a misfit).The same woman was trying to join a vocational order of sisters, that were externs. She even wore a habit, which shocked us, as she had a daughter. She wanted to be a sister so bad. One time she went on a field trip with her daughter’s public school wearing the habit. You can only imagine how embarrassed the daughter was, let alone the teacher.Of course we wondered if she had mental problems!Finally I heard that the RCC she would attend wearing the habit finally dealt with her, denying her the right to attend their church, and of course told her if she wore the habit they would have to prosecute.There are quite a few Protestants who have a great loyalty to the Roman Church,especially regarding the Eucharist, and personally I think that they should just join the RCC!:

I agree it is in very bad form to part take knowing the you are not doing so within the faith of that Church or maybe even against what your church teaches. As Catholic even thought the Anglican/ Episcopalian church has open communion to all Christians i can not receive as the Catholic church does not allow it. I would also agree with you that this woman had other issues as if she wanted to became a nun the first this would be to become Catholic. Have a child would not have been an issue once the child was an adult and no longer her Dependant.

 

[Peter_J]

Uh, no. There was (and is) real authority associated with being “first among equals”. If you really want to read a good (and short) book giving a contemporary Orthodox view of papal authority, read “You Are Peter” by Olivier Clement. Joe

But some Orthodox do talk about “Primacy of honor”.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

It sounds to me as it is there personal view I of no such doctrine (official or non official) that teaches this. M a r y the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. I could be wrong but it sounds to me as if they have taken doctrine of the church and developed a personal devotion and would like to see that spread. as I did not see this or hear them I can not really commit on what they said.

I am surprised you have not heard of it. Well in any case I did, and was surprised that such terminology was used.It must not be widespread!Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Lilyflower]

What about the Holy Spirit, it is HIS job to draw or woo us to the Living Christ. Our unity under one Church heading may sound good to you, but it is offensive to many believers, now if we are all united in the Spirit of Christ, and looked upon as His followers, the Holy Spirit works in and through us. You believe that a physical union under the Pope will foster a great world revival, that is wishful thinking on your part. The Unity we should all strive for is that which is eternal and spiritual in nature.Besides the world views us all as being Christians, and either condemns or praises our actions corporately./

QUOTE]

My emphasis.

This is in my experience of ‘Net Witnessing’ absolutely correct.

Atheists and those advocating the advance of secularism care not a hoot about Protestant or Catholic. Neither do they care about [and arguably are not even aware] of the differences.

When they blaspheme, deride and curse ‘the Church’ they are speaking collectively of ALL Christians.

Blessings and peace

 

[Peter_J]

I am surprised you have not heard of it. Well in any case I did, and was surprised that such terminology was used.It must not be widespread!Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I’ve heard of the “Mary, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit” idea, but I don’t know of any Catholics who want to make it a dogma.

 

[Lilyflower]

I’ve heard of the “Mary, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit” idea, but I don’t know of any Catholics who want to make it a dogma.

Not an idea I had thought about but an interesting one.

But surely that by definition makes Mary the spouse of her Divine Son

As for making something a dogma, so far as I am aware, us laity are not authorised to do so, that is for the theologians and Doctors of the Church under the authority of His Holiness under guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings and peace

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Not an idea I had thought about but an interesting one.

But surely that by definition makes Mary the spouse of her Divine Son

As for making something a dogma, so far as I am aware, us laity are not authorised to do so, that is for the theologians and Doctors of the Church under the authority of His Holiness under guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings and peace

It’s one of the mysteries that theologians can’t fully understand.

To explain the delimma you pose above, I think theologians explain it away with a term called “appropriation”. I’m no theologian, but I’ll have a go at it…

God created the world with words (aka, “let there be light” etc…). So, it is appropriate that the “word of God” became man to redeem the world. The Father or The Holy Spirit - I suppose - could have become man to do the work of redemption, but I think it was appropriate for The Son (aka, The Word) to do it.

Similarly, Mary could be the spouse of Jesus, but considering she gave birth to Him, it is appropriate that she is known as The Mother.

Mary could of been the Mother of the Holy Spirit, but considering the power of the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:35, it is appropriate that she is known as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

And of course, considering the Father is known as The Creator, it is appropriate that Mary is known as the daughter of The Father.

If God had siblings, she’d be his sister too.

Anyway, the idea of “Mary the spouse of her Divine Son”, as you put it, really isn’t that strange. Consider that Eve was born from Adam… yet Adam is the spouse of Eve. Consider that the Church was born from Jesus Christ (when the blood and water that founded the Church was spilled from Christ’s side when He was speared on the Cross), yet the Church is considered the Bride of Christ.

Sorry for taking this thread way off track - but I had these interesting thoughts in my mind and I had to write them down to clarify them.

 

[Peter_J]

Mary could of been the Mother of the Holy Spirit, but considering the power of the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:35, it is appropriate that she is known as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

I would go further than that: I would say that I see no possibility of calling Mary the “Mother of the Holy Spirit” (or “Mother of the Father” for that matter).

Anyway, the idea of “Mary the spouse of her Divine Son”, as you put it, really isn’t that strange. Consider that Eve was born from Adam… yet Adam is the spouse of Eve. Consider that the Church was born from Jesus Christ (when the blood and water that founded the Church was spilled from Christ’s side when He was speared on the Cross), yet the Church is considered the Bride of Christ.

Here I agree with you. Jesus and Mary are called the New Adam and the New Eve, even though the First Adam and the First Eve were spouses of each other, whereas the New Adam and the New Eve were not.