Pope, Orthodox Patriarch join in prayer

[Dan_Ugaro]

I would go further than that: I would say that I see no possibility of calling Mary the “Mother of the Holy Spirit” (or “Mother of the Father” for that matter).

Here I agree with you. Jesus and Mary are called the New Adam and the New Eve, even though the First Adam and the First Eve were spouses of each other, whereas the New Adam and the New Eve were not.

I was going to refrain from getting into detail with such a subject.Brought it up so that I could see how widespread of a teaching it has become in Catholic circles.According to the RCC Jesus and Mary may be called the New Adam and New Eve, but that is not the case with non-Catholic Christians. I will not elaborate, simply Jesus as the Sinless Person who has redeemed us is the New Adam , and that frankly is it. It is over the sin issue which we are all part of the curse.It is only through the redemption of our LORD, meaning God our Father who is the only Savior:“I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.” Isaiah 43:11. Also in Hosea the prophet,"YET I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no SAVIOR besides Me."Hosea 13:4. You say well Jesus is the Savior, of course and because as the SON of the Most Hight He inherits all the administrations of the Father. Most of all the Lord Jesus Christ is not to be separated from the ESSENCE of the Father."To whom will you liken ME, and make ME equal and compare ME, that we should be alike?Isaiah 46:5…“Remember the former things of old,for I am God, and there is none like Me,” Isa 46:9

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

I was going to refrain from getting into detail with such a subject.Brought it up so that I could see how widespread of a teaching it has become in Catholic circles.According to the RCC Jesus and Mary may be called the New Adam and New Eve, but that is not the case with non-Catholic Christians. I will not elaborate, simply Jesus as the Sinless Person who has redeemed us is the New Adam , and that frankly is it. It is over the sin issue which we are all part of the curse.It is only through the redemption of our LORD, meaning God our Father who is the only Savior:“I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.” Isaiah 43:11. Also in Hosea the prophet,"YET I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no SAVIOR besides Me."Hosea 13:4. You say well Jesus is the Savior, of course and because as the SON of the Most Hight He inherits all the administrations of the Father. Most of all the Lord Jesus Christ is not to be separated from the ESSENCE of the Father."To whom will you liken ME, and make ME equal and compare ME, that we should be alike?Isaiah 46:5…“Remember the former things of old,for I am God, and there is none like Me,” Isa 46:9

Continue Quote from Dan Ugaro:Again in Isaiah 44:8"Is there a God besides Me.? Indeed there is no other ROCK; I know not one.’" It is important to read the Old Covenant when It comes to the Father, because there are absolutes, we strongly must consider when discussing about the Person of Jesus.“I am the LORD, that is MY name; And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to carved images,” Isa 42:8 Naturally you do not have to go very far in the New Covenant to realize that Jesus in Chapter 17 of John’s Gospel is the ONE whom the Father shares His glory with.As the Godhead:1x1x1=One The Father times the Son times the Holy Spirit equals One Elohim. in the him is the plurality.We must be careful never to add the number as than there would be 3 distinct Gods, and that is not the case. ONE God(title) for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.They are ONE is Essence.Everything that applies to the Father is the same for the Holy Spirit and the Son as well.You may understand however the Administration.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Continue Quote from Dan Ugaro:Again in Isaiah 44:8"Is there a God besides Me.? Indeed there is no other ROCK; I know not one.’" It is important to read the Old Covenant when It comes to the Father, because there are absolutes, we strongly must consider when discussing about the Person of Jesus.“I am the LORD, that is MY name; And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to carved images,” Isa 42:8 Naturally you do not have to go very far in the New Covenant to realize that Jesus in Chapter 17 of John’s Gospel is the ONE whom the Father shares His glory with.As the Godhead:1x1x1=One The Father times the Son times the Holy Spirit equals One Elohim. in the him is the plurality.We must be careful never to add the number as than there would be 3 distinct Gods, and that is not the case. ONE God(title) for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.They are ONE is Essence.Everything that applies to the Father is the same for the Holy Spirit and the Son as well.You may understand however the Administration.

Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit. Now I am not condemning anyone for discussing, and or even entertaining such a concept, for I am not called to condemn, only our Father through His Son shall administer Judgment. So just read me out! Mary is a created being"this people I have formed for Myself; they shall declare My praise."“I am the LORD, your Holy One the Creator of Israel, your King.” Isa 43: 21, and verse 15. Mary is the daughter of Israel and a created being. Jesus is not a created being, but begotten of the Father before the foundations of the World.The greatest miracle of the Glory of God is to implant the Holy SEED into the womb of Mary,by the Power of the Holy Spirit, thus the remarkable process of the conception of Jesus(One with the Father) took place in Mary.That alone is astounding, as it goes beyond the physical restrictions of human kind in Sexual Intercourse. A man and a woman pro-create,beget children. BUT in this case a Virgin was impregnated by G-d, and a truly separate holy event occurred without the intervention of Human contribution of semen. The SIN of Adam goes through the Semen of MEN, not through the womb of the woman. Eve although guilty of sin, with her husband Adam, is not the sin carrier or sin is not passed through HER, but through the MAN(Adam).

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit. Now I am not condemning anyone for discussing, and or even entertaining such a concept, for I am not called to condemn, only our Father through His Son shall administer Judgment. So just read me out! Mary is a created being"this people I have formed for Myself; they shall declare My praise."“I am the LORD, your Holy One the Creator of Israel, your King.” Isa 43: 21, and verse 15. Mary is the daughter of Israel and a created being. Jesus is not a created being, but begotten of the Father before the foundations of the World.The greatest miracle of the Glory of God is to implant the Holy SEED into the womb of Mary,by the Power of the Holy Spirit, thus the remarkable process of the conception of Jesus(One with the Father) took place in Mary.That alone is astounding, as it goes beyond the physical restrictions of human kind in Sexual Intercourse. A man and a woman pro-create,beget children. BUT in this case a Virgin was impregnated by G-d, and a truly separate holy event occurred without the intervention of Human contribution of semen. The SIN of Adam goes through the Semen of MEN, not through the womb of the woman. Eve although guilty of sin, with her husband Adam, is not the sin carrier or sin is not passed through HER, but through the MAN(Adam).

Mary the Holy Virgin: Holy in terms of God is separateness unto Him who is Holy. Mary was separated from all Women, to bear the Holy One of Israel. The unique mystery if you want to use the term is in the V i r g i n.In her state of virginity Mary(Miriam), carried no sin,not because she is the Immaculate Conception, but because simply sin is not passed through the woman, and being a virgin her state is pure. Virginity is a pure state, why do we make so much of the fact that young women should remain pure, until they are Married and consummate their marriage with a husband?Your church strongly teaches that Mary had to be born without sin to bear the Holy One, well God already was ahead of us all, and in the very state of Virginity a woman is in a pure state in her body. And it is more than likely that at the very annunciation Mary’s soul was washed clean of as you say original sin. But the point is since V i r g i n births are extremely RARE, Mary’s holy state in her virginity was sufficient to bear the HOLY ONE of Israel.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Mary the Holy Virgin: Holy in terms of God is separateness unto Him who is Holy. Mary was separated from all Women, to bear the Holy One of Israel. The unique mystery if you want to use the term is in the V i r g i n.In her state of virginity Mary(Miriam), carried no sin,not because she is the Immaculate Conception, but because simply sin is not passed through the woman, and being a virgin her state is pure. Virginity is a pure state, why do we make so much of the fact that young women should remain pure, until they are Married and consummate their marriage with a husband?Your church strongly teaches that Mary had to be born without sin to bear the Holy One, well God already was ahead of us all, and in the very state of Virginity a woman is in a pure state in her body. And it is more than likely that at the very annunciation Mary’s soul was washed clean of as you say original sin. But the point is since V i r g i n births are extremely RARE, Mary’s holy state in her virginity was sufficient to bear the HOLY ONE of Israel.

Jesus is the only Immaculate Conception in Scripture, as sinless. Mary is made holy unto God, and that is through God being the only Savior. There is not account that says God pondered up in heaven how He was going to bypass the sinfulness of human kind in order to bring His Incarnate Son. He had to come up with a remedy to make sure His Holy Son was born to a sinful woman, or woman born with the sin of Adam.Mary had two parents did she not? What remedy, God already created a full proof plan to bring His sinless Son into the world. He passed sin on through the Semen of Man not through the womb of a virgin woman.Mary’s most sacred place in history is that she was not marred by a man’s semen as a virgin, thus sin could not enter the Holy One. How great is that? YET God still brings about His Salvation(Y’shua)Jesus through sinful humanity, in order to save it!!! That is wondrous and powerful. Mary a created being born of sin, but as a virgin pure carries the Holy One of Israel who not only can save the world but makes her pure as well. That is why she addressed God as her Savior. How dare we take that away from her?You know that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was confirmed in 1840’s at Lourdes, and Catholics are NOT compelled to believe in the apparitions. That doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is only that of the RCC, even the Orthodox reject it, as they know Mary was in her virgin state pure enough to bare the HOLY ONE.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Jesus is the only Immaculate Conception in Scripture, as sinless. Mary is made holy unto God, and that is through God being the only Savior. There is not account that says God pondered up in heaven how He was going to bypass the sinfulness of human kind in order to bring His Incarnate Son. He had to come up with a remedy to make sure His Holy Son was born to a sinful woman, or woman born with the sin of Adam.Mary had two parents did she not? What remedy, God already created a full proof plan to bring His sinless Son into the world. He passed sin on through the Semen of Man not through the womb of a virgin woman.Mary’s most sacred place in history is that she was not marred by a man’s semen as a virgin, thus sin could not enter the Holy One. How great is that? YET God still brings about His Salvation(Y’shua)Jesus through sinful humanity, in order to save it!!! That is wondrous and powerful. Mary a created being born of sin, but as a virgin pure carries the Holy One of Israel who not only can save the world but makes her pure as well. That is why she addressed God as her Savior. How dare we take that away from her?You know that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was confirmed in 1840’s at Lourdes, and Catholics are NOT compelled to believe in the apparitions. That doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is only that of the RCC, even the Orthodox reject it, as they know Mary was in her virgin state pure enough to bare the HOLY ONE.

Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit! G-d is ONE and as ONE he has no Human person as either a parent or a guardian, or an agent in purpose with the ONE. God is sufficient and Complete in and of HIMSELF."For My own sake(complete), for My own sake, I will do it; for how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another."Isaiah 48:11.Soledad as it were, He is complete and what He does is for His pleasure, as creation brings great JOY to Him.In Isaiah 49 verses 5-6 Jesus is prophesied"And now the LORD says , Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant…(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and My God shall be My strength)…‘I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’"God perfect and complete in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot have a human parent nor a spouse, if that is surmised otherwise than understanding the ONENESS of Elohim is far from even remotely understood. To put a created being in the Glory of the Godhead as a spouse or even a mother goes against the Old Covenant in a way that defies reality,logic,and even Faith in the true and Living God. That borders on the Pagan myriad of gods and goddesses, Egyptian as well. The Hebrews/Jewish canon and tradition reject those possiblilites. If you really want to serve Yahweh in spirit and in truth than you will never accept the teaching or suggestion that Mary is the Spouse of any member of the Godhead.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Your church strongly teaches that Mary had to be born without sin to bear the Holy One…

I have a different reasoning for the Immaculate Conception…

Eve was the spouse of Adam.
Israel is the spouse of The Father.
The Church is the spouse of The Son.
And Mary is the spouse of The Holy Spirit.

Eve was created immaculate, and from her creation she was the spouse of Adam.
I’m not sure if there is any biblical references as to when Israel became the spouse of The Father and whether or not Israel was created immaculate. Maybe somebody can help me out here.
The Church was created immaculate, “without a stain or blemish”, and from Her Creation - when the blood and water, that founded the Chruch, spilled form Christ’s ribs on the cross - she became the spouse to The Son.

And so, I see a pattern. From the creation of Mary, she was always the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t it be fitting that the spouse of the Holy Spirit be immaculate?

Anyway, that was just my thoughts :twocents:

… You know that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was confirmed in 1840’s at Lourdes…

Although Catholics always believed in the Immaculate Conception, it was formally declared in 1854. The miracle of Lourdes occurred later in 1858.

… If you really want to serve Yahweh in spirit and in truth than you will never accept the teaching or suggestion that Mary is the Spouse of any member of the Godhead.

Why not? If Mary can be a daughter of God, and the Mother of God, then why not be his spouse too? Heck, if God had siblings she could be his sister as well. (But God doesn’t have siblings… Protestants may disagree here. )

 

[Peter_J]

Dan Ugaro,

I’m not all surprised that don’t agree with the idea of Mary being spouse of the Holy Spirit (I myself am unsure what to think of that idea) but I’m a little shocked that you said “God perfect and complete in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot have a human parent nor a spouse”. I mean, don’t you believe that the church is the bride of Christ?

 

[Freshman88]

Hello,

I’m Orthodox Christian and from what I see, it is impossible for Roman Catholic to humble themselves and acknowledge the Autocephaly and independence of the Orthodox.

The Pope would never give up what is need to bring the Churches together.

Maybe if Rome becomes a non-Christian country and the pope found himself encircled by a hostel religion, he may just change his mind.

Remember time is not on his hands here. Look at the number of births going on in Italy and all around Western Europe. It don’t look bright for western Christians. All one needs to do is read what is going on over there…

Rome has already been surrounded by hostile liberal secularists, they persevered, and will continue to do so.

The problem is as simple as this. We think we are right while you think that you are right.

As from Rome recognizing independence of Eastern Orthodox Churches, they certainly do. I personally find this hard to accept, because to me it seems like a slap in the face to the Eastern Catholic Churches.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

I have a different reasoning for the Immaculate Conception…

Eve was the spouse of Adam.
Israel is the spouse of The Father.
The Church is the spouse of The Son.
And Mary is the spouse of The Holy Spirit.

Eve was created immaculate, and from her creation she was the spouse of Adam.
I’m not sure if there is any biblical references as to when Israel became the spouse of The Father and whether or not Israel was created immaculate. Maybe somebody can help me out here.
The Church was created immaculate, “without a stain or blemish”, and from Her Creation - when the blood and water, that founded the Chruch, spilled form Christ’s ribs on the cross - she became the spouse to The Son.

And so, I see a pattern. From the creation of Mary, she was always the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t it be fitting that the spouse of the Holy Spirit be immaculate?

Anyway, that was just my thoughts :twocents:

Although Catholics always believed in the Immaculate Conception, it was formally declared in 1854. The miracle of Lourdes occurred later in 1858.

Why not? If Mary can be a daughter of God, and the Mother of God, then why not be his spouse too? Heck, if God had siblings she could be his sister as well. (But God doesn’t have siblings… Protestants may disagree here. )

Protestants do not believe that God had siblings, just as we do not believe that God had a Mother. Jesus the Son of Man, had both a Mother and siblings. We do not call Mary the Mother of God, because when you say that than you are declaring Mary as Mother of God the title of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit. God is title for the Inseparable Father, Son and Holy Spirit.I hate being called a Protestant, but it comes with the territory, and for centuries anyone who protested against the teachings of Rome, were deemed Protestant. Except the Orthodox!

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Dan Ugaro,

I’m not all surprised that don’t agree with the idea of Mary being spouse of the Holy Spirit (I myself am unsure what to think of that idea) but I’m a little shocked that you said “God perfect and complete in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot have a human parent nor a spouse”. I mean, don’t you believe that the church is the bride of Christ?

You know Peter, your right, I did not even realize the error I made here. I was thinking in regards to Mary alone. But Yes Jesus and the Bride will become ONE in a marriage in heaven before the Throne of Grace.Most Christians outside of the RCC, believe that the Bride of Christ is corporately all believers who have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb, are born-again of the Spirit, and truly live for the Lord.So that covers the span of all Christians, no matter what their affiliation is,also the Messianic Jews as well.Again, I stand corrected for not thinking of the Bride as the Church, and Christ being the groom.

 

[Peter_J]

^^ Hear hear!

 

[Peter_J]

Protestants do not believe that God had siblings, just as we do not believe that God had a Mother. Jesus the Son of Man, had both a Mother and siblings. We do not call Mary the Mother of God, because when you say that than you are declaring Mary as Mother of God the title of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit. God is title for the Inseparable Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When we (Catholics, Orthodox, etc.) say that Mary is the Mother of God (theotokos, literally the birth-giver of God), we mean that Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

When we (Catholics, Orthodox, etc.) say that Mary is the Mother of God (theotokos, literally the birth-giver of God), we mean that Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is God.

Well known term (theotokos), and understood that Mary carried in her body the Holy One of Israel.Jesus is both the Son of God, and the Son of Man. The 2nd,Son of man is total humanity which He inherited from the Human Being Mary. Her state of human motherhood miraculously covers all that is human in our Lord.Since Jesus was begotten of the Father before the World was made, He is of the Essence of the Father, God.In rightly dividing the word of truth, Jesus as the Son of Man,also bore in His person the limits of human flesh(although He had the Spirit without measure), those limitations are inherited by His mother Mary.Mary is strictly and miraculously the Mother of the Man Christ Jesus, the most Perfect human being ever to live, that is why it is so important to believe that God came in the F l e s h, and we are anti-Christ if we reject the humanity of the Son of God.The Bible , in the New Covenant always calls Jesus the Son of Man, and not just as a title, but to reveal the total humanity of this Man,with also the limitations of the flesh,and the characteristics of human development that are not attributed to the Perfect Deity, but relegated to Man.Mary sufficiently is the Mother of this Perfect Man, and her role in such a matter is DONE. Now the fact that she is so blessed of all women, is not because just because she carried the Holy One in her womb, but that He is the Perfect Man,sinless and pure. Mary is plenty blessed as a human being and a woman born of sinful humanity, the ONLY woman to ever experience such an event as this. The theotokos is a Greek term,which focuses more on the Person in the Womb rather than the Woman who bore the child.Jesus is the Holy focus in theotokos.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Well known term (theotokos), and understood that Mary carried in her body the Holy One of Israel.Jesus is both the Son of God, and the Son of Man. The 2nd,Son of man is total humanity which He inherited from the Human Being Mary. Her state of human motherhood miraculously covers all that is human in our Lord.Since Jesus was begotten of the Father before the World was made, He is of the Essence of the Father, God.In rightly dividing the word of truth, Jesus as the Son of Man,also bore in His person the limits of human flesh(although He had the Spirit without measure), those limitations are inherited by His mother Mary.Mary is strictly and miraculously the Mother of the Man Christ Jesus, the most Perfect human being ever to live, that is why it is so important to believe that God came in the F l e s h, and we are anti-Christ if we reject the humanity of the Son of God.The Bible , in the New Covenant always calls Jesus the Son of Man, and not just as a title, but to reveal the total humanity of this Man,with also the limitations of the flesh,and the characteristics of human development that are not attributed to the Perfect Deity, but relegated to Man.Mary sufficiently is the Mother of this Perfect Man, and her role in such a matter is DONE. Now the fact that she is so blessed of all women, is not because just because she carried the Holy One in her womb, but that He is the Perfect Man,sinless and pure. Mary is plenty blessed as a human being and a woman born of sinful humanity, the ONLY woman to ever experience such an event as this. The theotokos is a Greek term,which focuses more on the Person in the Womb rather than the Woman who bore the child.Jesus is the Holy focus in theotokos.

Mary is the AVENUE of transport of the most spectacular event in the Universe, that God would become F l e s h and dwell among us. Jesus is already God, because of the Oneness of the Godhead, and all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him. But the Miracle, and marvel is that God humbled Himself, and became Man. What more can be a blessing to this our fellow Mother and sister in Christ?Jesus stated that all who do the Will of His Father in heaven is His mother, and or sister.That applies to us all, so to call Mary the Mother of us all of the household of faith is scriptural, I am sorry if some Protestants misinterpret that concept.They should honor Mary more in the fact that she is Mother to us all through her Son Jesus, in doing the will of the Father in heaven.Nevertheless to call Mary, Mother of God has its drawback in the fact that God is ONE, and Jesus already before the foundation of the World IS God in the Godhead, therefore Mary is wondrously the Mother of the Son of Man, Jesus in the Flesh, or in humanity. You have to separate the truth of who Jesus was here,in reality . Mary is no less blessed, nor is she maligned in any way, but she shares a glory here that no woman on earth, nor ever will experience, what M a r y experienced, as the Mother of the Son of Man!

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Mary is the AVENUE of transport of the most spectacular event in the Universe, that God would become F l e s h and dwell among us. Jesus is already God, because of the Oneness of the Godhead, and all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him. But the Miracle, and marvel is that God humbled Himself, and became Man. What more can be a blessing to this our fellow Mother and sister in Christ?Jesus stated that all who do the Will of His Father in heaven is His mother, and or sister.That applies to us all, so to call Mary the Mother of us all of the household of faith is scriptural, I am sorry if some Protestants misinterpret that concept.They should honor Mary more in the fact that she is Mother to us all through her Son Jesus, in doing the will of the Father in heaven.Nevertheless to call Mary, Mother of God has its drawback in the fact that God is ONE, and Jesus already before the foundation of the World IS God in the Godhead, therefore Mary is wondrously the Mother of the Son of Man, Jesus in the Flesh, or in humanity. You have to separate the truth of who Jesus was here,in reality . Mary is no less blessed, nor is she maligned in any way, but she shares a glory here that no woman on earth, nor ever will experience, what M a r y experienced, as the Mother of the Son of Man!

My final word on this: Dan Ugaro. As Christians we are the only ones who believe that God came in the Flesh in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are unique in this great truth. Every religion under the sun argues with us about this. I had a great deal of contact with Bahais and Muslims over the years.I choose them as a focus here, because they both believe in the One God. The Bahais embrace all religions as expressions of God but basically Baha’ullah taught that Monotheism is the actual true way to worship God. Of all the writings of Baha’ullah there is one particular quote of him(which was hard to find). paraphrased:"In no way did God in and of His Essence beget Jesus."He rejected the Core of our belief in the Son of God, yet through myriads of smooth language Jesus is finally termed as one in the succession of many Christs, unique but not the final Christ. As Muhammed was a Christ, and now the final one according to the Bahais is Baha’ullah, yet they believe another might come after him.The very fact that Jesus is the Incarnate one, is so important to note His humanity. We all believe in God(monotheistic religions), and we all believe that God sends messengers and anointed ones(Christs), but the fact of through blessed Mother Mary, that Jesus became fully human(as God) is a miracle that the other monotheistic faiths cannot and will not believe.Yet they all say that God can do the Impossible.But the whole picture of this miracle so includes Mary in her humanity, and y e s her sinful state she inherited from her parents. That God would so bless a woman of sinful flesh, that through His Spirit she would be made clean by His grace, and that in her womb(though already a sacred place of purity) she would carry our Lord.Monotheistic religions such as:Judaism,Islam, Bahaism,and Zoroastrianism, cannot accept that God could take a woman of such a state and use her to usher into our world the Divine Savior of all human kind.It is wrong to take away from Mary the nature of sin she inherited from her Jewish parents.Because in that very state God applies His grace, and her conversion of her soul to Him is part of the very WILL to aid in accomplishing the very Purpose of the Father concerning Y’shua(Yeshua). It fulfills the Torah, and the Prophets! But to make Mary the Immaculate Conception brings a pagan concept of a goddess to beget a god. That is not the Torah or the Prophets. For that matter John the Baptist was born without sin as well. Was not the Holy Spirit in him in the womb, and he leaped for joy?Read Luke’s account.The only Sinless one is Yeshua our salvation!The Bible emphatically states in the old and new Covenants that all human beings are shaped in iniquity and sin, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.Mary should not be deprived of that great salvation, and in the Magnificat she calls God her Savior.

 

[JohnSix68]

There’s a vast difference between the Orthodox Churches and Protestant churches. So IF they were to reconcile it will not affect many Protestant churches. There are less doctrinal hurdles the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church need to jump for them to reconcile. Whereas, the Protestant churches which do not have any Holy Orders will be unwilling to join the union. Their views on Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide along with many of them view the Pope, as the antichrist will not put pressure for them to reconcile as well.

JohnSix68
Tiber Swim Team - Class of 2008

 

[Lilyflower]

It’s one of the mysteries that theologians can’t fully understand.

To explain the delimma you pose above, I think theologians explain it away with a term called “appropriation”. I’m no theologian, but I’ll have a go at it…

God created the world with words (aka, “let there be light” etc…). So, it is appropriate that the “word of God” became man to redeem the world. The Father or The Holy Spirit - I suppose - could have become man to do the work of redemption, but I think it was appropriate for The Son (aka, The Word) to do it.

Similarly, Mary could be the spouse of Jesus, but considering she gave birth to Him, it is appropriate that she is known as The Mother.

Mary could of been the Mother of the Holy Spirit, but considering the power of the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:35, it is appropriate that she is known as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

And of course, considering the Father is known as The Creator, it is appropriate that Mary is known as the daughter of The Father.

If God had siblings, she’d be his sister too.

Anyway, the idea of “Mary the spouse of her Divine Son”, as you put it, really isn’t that strange. Consider that Eve was born from Adam… yet Adam is the spouse of Eve. Consider that the Church was born from Jesus Christ (when the blood and water that founded the Church was spilled from Christ’s side when He was speared on the Cross), yet the Church is considered the Bride of Christ.

Sorry for taking this thread way off track - but I had these interesting thoughts in my mind and I had to write them down to clarify them.

I suppose that as Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, that makes them as close as any married couple. I suppose in that context she is both Mother of the Son in the Father and the Holy Spirit but spouse of the Holy Spirit in the Father Son and Holy Spirit while also being a child of the Father. But as she like Christ [and the rest of humanity] is also a child of God that also makes her her Son’s sister.

I think English lawyers would have a field day with that one!

Thus Mary is Mother of God, Spouse of God and child of God.

Good job ‘Unity of the Blessed Trinity’ occurs only once!

Blessings and peace

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

There’s a vast difference between the Orthodox Churches and Protestant churches. So IF they were to reconcile it will not affect many Protestant churches. There are less doctrinal hurdles the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church need to jump for them to reconcile. Whereas, the Protestant churches which do not have any Holy Orders will be unwilling to join the union. Their views on Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide along with many of them view the Pope, as the antichrist will not put pressure for them to reconcile as well.

JohnSix68
Tiber Swim Team - Class of 2008

The Apostle John also says in the same chapter 6:“It is the Spirit who gives life; the f l e s h profits n o t h i n g.The words that I speak to you are s p i r i t, and they are life.” Jesus said that, and it puts a whole new concept to the entirety of the chapter, in that it sums up all that He said as spirit, not actual transubstantiation as the Catholic Church upholds in the beginning of the chapter.Evangelicals especially as you are stating our position in reconciling with the Pope, have many reasons why they would never submit to the Authority of the Roman Church. You will have enough just to get the Orthodox to swallow hundreds of years of separation for their unique reasons.A spiritual union between believers who are born of the Spirit of God is always possible, and is actually a reality today, but physical union under the Pope for many Protestants and evangelicals is N E V E R a reality! And I will say Never!There is a diametrically opposing factor to the non-Catholic Christian concepts, in contrast to the RCC, and even the Orthodox.Never the twain shall meet!God will sort it out in the Spiritual realm of His Godhead, not us!

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

I suppose that as Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, that makes them as close as any married couple. I suppose in that context she is both Mother of the Son in the Father and the Holy Spirit but spouse of the Holy Spirit in the Father Son and Holy Spirit while also being a child of the Father. But as she like Christ [and the rest of humanity] is also a child of God that also makes her her Son’s sister.

I think English lawyers would have a field day with that one!

Thus Mary is Mother of God, Spouse of God and child of God.

Good job ‘Unity of the Blessed Trinity’ occurs only once!

Blessings and peace

It is share fantasy, and not worthy of the Messianic teachings of Scripture. Mary had a wonderful place in the design of God’s plan to come into the world, became flesh and dwelt amongst us.Mary, as humble as she must have been no doubt is fulfilled in her role as the mother of the Son of Man, The humanity of the Person of Jesus(yet One with the Father in Glory). I know that RCs feel that Mary’s role supersedes that of what I state, but the Catholics barely give her the glory for that alone, and rather put her on a pedestal she does not belong on.This is a division in Christianity that will never cease, as long as we are on this planet. Since Catholics are not required to believe in the Marian Apparitions, surely you do not believe that Evangelicals will ever believe in them?You should look up the Spouse of the Holy Spirit and read what Doctor Mark Miravalle says in regards to the 5th Dogma on the Co-Redemptrix-Mediatix, and Advocate. Also if you go farther he states why the RCs should believe in the apparitions of Mary, especially of Fatima, because the devotion of the Immaculate Heart is required to avoid world destruction as noted in the Visions to the 3 children at Fatima. There are many cracks in those concepts and many non-Catholic Christians do read about them to understand better Marian dogmas and doctrines.