Pope, Orthodox Patriarch join in prayer

[Peter_J]

Dan Ugaro,

Mary, as humble as she must have been no doubt is fulfilled in her role as the mother of the Son of Man, The humanity of the Person of Jesus(yet One with the Father in Glory). I know that RCs feel that Mary’s role supersedes that of what I state, but the Catholics barely give her the glory for that alone, and rather put her on a pedestal she does not belong on.This is a division in Christianity that will never cease, as long as we are on this planet.

And yet if you look at the dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East

… Emblematic of these differences in terminology is the "Common Christological Declaration between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, [4] signed by John Paul II, Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic Church, and Mar Dinkha IV, Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East on November 11,1994.

The division between the two Churches in question goes back to the disputes over the legitimacy of the expression Mother of God, as well as Mother of Christ for the Virgin Mary, that came to a head at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

The Common Declaration recalls that the Assyrian Church of the East prays to the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”, and the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of God” and also as “the Mother of Christ”, fuller expressions by which each Church clearly acknowledges both the divinity and the humanity of Mary’s son. The co-signers of the Common Declaration could thus state: “We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety.”

(quote taken from wikipedia)

Your description of Mary as “the mother of the Son of Man, The humanity of the Person of Jesus” did not (I’m pretty sure) come up in the discussion, because both sides sees Mary as the mother of Jesus, not the mother of Jesus’ humanity.

 

[JohnSix68]

The Apostle John also says in the same chapter 6:“It is the Spirit who gives life; the f l e s h profits n o t h i n g.The words that I speak to you are s p i r i t, and they are life.” Jesus said that, and it puts a whole new concept to the entirety of the chapter, in that it sums up all that He said as spirit, not actual transubstantiation as the Catholic Church upholds in the beginning of the chapter.Evangelicals especially as you are stating our position in reconciling with the Pope, have many reasons why they would never submit to the Authority of the Roman Church. You will have enough just to get the Orthodox to swallow hundreds of years of separation for their unique reasons.A spiritual union between believers who are born of the Spirit of God is always possible, and is actually a reality today, but physical union under the Pope for many Protestants and evangelicals is N E V E R a reality! And I will say Never!There is a diametrically opposing factor to the non-Catholic Christian concepts, in contrast to the RCC, and even the Orthodox.Never the twain shall meet!God will sort it out in the Spiritual realm of His Godhead, not us!

 

[JohnSix68]

Dan Ugaro

Dan, I ‘m not sure if you are aware but both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches believe that John chapter 6, Jesus taught that the Eucharist, is his body and blood. Jesus said this IS my body also this IS my blood. The Church always believed this until the reformation. You are correct that your view “puts whole new concept” to the chapter.
Concerning “physical union under the Pope for many Protestants and evangelicals is NEVER a reality” is true; furthermore, there will NEVER be a union among themselves.
Why? I think it’s because of pride. Humans rebel against authority, and want to be their own boss or pope. That’s why there’s over 25,000 plus denominations and growing.

JohnSix68
Tiber Swim Team - Class of 2008

 

[Peter_J]

By the way, personally I have absolutely nothing against calling Mary “the Mother of Christ our God”.

For one thing, it emphasizes the fact that we are calling Mary the Mother of the second person of the trinity (not the mother of the Father or of the Holy Spirit). And of course, that she is the mother of the person Jesus Christ, who is both God and man.

Also, while we should completely respect the decision of the early church to call her “theotokos”, we can also recognize that “Mother of God” isn’t an exact translation of that term and hence shouldn’t be insisted upon too heavily. (In the same way, Catholics don’t lean too heavily on the phrase “who proceeds from the Father” as this isn’t an exact translation of “ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon”.)

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Dan Ugaro,

And yet if you look at the dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East

(quote taken from wikipedia)

Your description of Mary as “the mother of the Son of Man, The humanity of the Person of Jesus” did not (I’m pretty sure) come up in the discussion, because both sides sees Mary as the mother of Jesus, not the mother of Jesus’ humanity.

Peter, we in no way deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am sure you realize that. But there is a foundation in scripture that strictly sets a pattern of Jesus in His early ministry, as the Son of Man, meaning before He was condemned by the Jewish Sanhedrin and executed.That Son of Man is where His humanity and the f l e s h of His being resonates, and is an afront to the Sanhedrin, as of course they could not see past his flesh, and to see the Spiritual Kingdom of which He spoke of.The Gospel is the Good News of the Kingdom of God, coming down from glory to the very body,soul and spirit of human kind.This is what is so important, as the First message of Yeshua to the Jewish people. The Kingdom of God, again being introduced to the Jewish people, who rejected the one on one relationship they had with Elohim, before King Saul was instituted as king over Israel, replacing the Judges, as seen in First Samuel.The Jews in the days of the Prophet Samuel were visited by the very Presence of God, and that judgment and law was instituted by the Judges, yet God still spoke to His people from a cloud, and in their midst. They demanded a king as a leader,because they longed for what the other nations had as kings and emperors and so on. But God warned them that under a King they would be made to not only SERVE but to give most of their substance to the King as well. Whereas with God, they would Serve, but they stood to profit more in the material possessions and way of life lived in the ONE on ONE relationship.Jesus came to re-instate that through the Kingdom of God teaching in the gospels, naturally the Jews and Sanhedrin rejected it. But many people were blessed in and through the teachings of the Lord.That is a precursor as it were to the type of relationship God wants with the spiritually born anew believers both now and in our history as a Church.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

By the way, personally I have absolutely nothing against calling Mary “the Mother of Christ our God”.

For one thing, it emphasizes the fact that we are calling Mary the Mother of the second person of the trinity (not the mother of the Father or of the Holy Spirit). And of course, that she is the mother of the person Jesus Christ, who is both God and man.

Also, while we should completely respect the decision of the early church to call her “theotokos”, we can also recognize that “Mother of God” isn’t an exact translation of that term and hence shouldn’t be insisted upon too heavily. (In the same way, Catholics don’t lean too heavily on the phrase “who proceeds from the Father” as this isn’t an exact translation of “ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon”.)

Refreshing statement of fact: I appreciate your wording and the careful sensitivity as a brother in Christ. You will never read from my responses, negative, ridiculous remarks that many non-Catholic fundamentalists write to lay attacks of condemnation, rather than understanding. No one should be condemned for what they believe, and it bothers me when people quickly hurl a person to a domain of evil because they do not believe exactly or say the same things. Our agreement can be tenderly in the Spirit of Him who authored our way to begin with. I naturally do not agree with many things,about a lot of systems and beliefs, but I must as an Ambassador of the Righteous ONE, humbly so, build bridges of Love and understanding. Thank you for your kindness in doing the same. The LORD richly bless you and yours! DAN.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Dan Ugaro

Dan, I ‘m not sure if you are aware but both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches believe that John chapter 6, Jesus taught that the Eucharist, is his body and blood. Jesus said this IS my body also this IS my blood. The Church always believed this until the reformation. You are correct that your view “puts whole new concept” to the chapter.
Concerning “physical union under the Pope for many Protestants and evangelicals is NEVER a reality” is true; furthermore, there will NEVER be a union among themselves.
Why? I think it’s because of pride. Humans rebel against authority, and want to be their own boss or pope. That’s why there’s over 25,000 plus denominations and growing.

JohnSix68
Tiber Swim Team - Class of 2008

Don’t worry you are not the first person who has come up with 25,000 plus denominations, for one most Catholics and Prots who argue on threads have even increased the stats as being 35,000. One thing Catholics do not realize is that many groups are missionary extensions of the original. Take for example the Assemblies of God: there are numerous extensions that do not use the title of Assembly of God, but call their fellowship or group, New Life fellowship and so on. Have to run, I will comment further later.

 

[Peter_J]

I’ll leave the “25,000 Protestant denominations” discussion to you two, JohnSix68 and Dan Ugaro. I’ve already got a few back-posts that I’d like to respond to, when I get the time.

I’ll start with this one:

Peter, we in no way deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am sure you realize that.

You are correct, I do realize that.

The Nestorian controversy was not over whether Jesus was divine or not (that was dealt with in the Arian controversy); rather, at issue in the Nestorian controversy was the fact that Jesus was one person, and the implications of that fact.

One of those implications, the Church (the Council of Ephesus, to be more precise) decided, was that Mary was the mother of that one person, not “the mother of Jesus’ humanity”.

Thus we can say that Mary gave birth to God, and call her “theotokos”.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Don’t worry you are not the first person who has come up with 25,000 plus denominations, for one most Catholics and Prots who argue on threads have even increased the stats as being 35,000. One thing Catholics do not realize is that many groups are missionary extensions of the original. Take for example the Assemblies of God: there are numerous extensions that do not use the title of Assembly of God, but call their fellowship or group, New Life fellowship and so on. Have to run, I will comment further later.

Have a little bit more to say on the subject. Also the Orthodox have their autonomous type churches, which may fall under a certain See:Constantinople,Serbian,Russian,Ukrainian,Romanian and etc. There are Orthodox autonomous churches in Japan,Alaska, and in Iceland and Finland. The Protestants fall under two main categories: Mainline,and Evangelical. Your Reformation Churches are:United Presbyterian,United Methodist,United Brethren,Congregationalists,Lutherans,Reformed churches(Dutch,Swiss,Danish),Episcopals,Anglicans and Churches of Christ.( there is a liberal form of Baptist which claims its roots back to reformation period).World Council of Churches has pretty much been the umbrella for the Main-Line. I know that the Orthodox have been members, which always surprised me, but that does not affect their belief system.The Evangelicals: whether you realize it or not have a belief system that has been the basis of all the Main-line Churches for years.And to this day you have millions of evangelicals in the Main-line churches who for denominational affiliation stay with the Reformation Churches.However the National Council of Evangelicals is the Umbrella for the autonomous evangelical movements world-wide.It is very much a misconception of CATHOLICS that evangelicals are all a bunch of religions, and that they are not united in any way.I have for years heard from Catholics, that “you have so many religions, and none of you agree on anything.” That clearly shows a misguided biased view, which has been propagated by the Roman Church for years, to herald its own UNITY of sorts.It is also a terrible misconception that evangelicals are linked with “Christian cults” such as: Jehovah Witnesses,Latter Day Saints(Mormons), Christian Science,United Pentecostals(Apostolic s or ONENESS Jesus-only cult),7th Day Adventism(which has strong cult roots).Christodelphians,Swedeborgianism,and to be continued!

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Have a little bit more to say on the subject. Also the Orthodox have their autonomous type churches, which may fall under a certain See:Constantinople,Serbian,Russian,Ukrainian,Romanian and etc. There are Orthodox autonomous churches in Japan,Alaska, and in Iceland and Finland. The Protestants fall under two main categories: Mainline,and Evangelical. Your Reformation Churches are:United Presbyterian,United Methodist,United Brethren,Congregationalists,Lutherans,Reformed churches(Dutch,Swiss,Danish),Episcopals,Anglicans and Churches of Christ.( there is a liberal form of Baptist which claims its roots back to reformation period).World Council of Churches has pretty much been the umbrella for the Main-Line. I know that the Orthodox have been members, which always surprised me, but that does not affect their belief system.The Evangelicals: whether you realize it or not have a belief system that has been the basis of all the Main-line Churches for years.And to this day you have millions of evangelicals in the Main-line churches who for denominational affiliation stay with the Reformation Churches.However the National Council of Evangelicals is the Umbrella for the autonomous evangelical movements world-wide.It is very much a misconception of CATHOLICS that evangelicals are all a bunch of religions, and that they are not united in any way.I have for years heard from Catholics, that “you have so many religions, and none of you agree on anything.” That clearly shows a misguided biased view, which has been propagated by the Roman Church for years, to herald its own UNITY of sorts.It is also a terrible misconception that evangelicals are linked with “Christian cults” such as: Jehovah Witnesses,Latter Day Saints(Mormons), Christian Science,United Pentecostals(Apostolic s or ONENESS Jesus-only cult),7th Day Adventism(which has strong cult roots).Christodelphians,Swedeborgianism,and to be continued!

Non-Catholic Christians continued: Dan Ugaro. PRIDE, in some cases yes. But the overall operatus for the whole Christian movement outside of your “Church” is purity of doctrine and most of all separation from denominations which have literally dumped the solid truths of the Bible(Absolutes), for a creed that is liberal to the point of political rhetoric and affiliation.Although there are Evangelicals in the Main-Line churches, the infrastructure of the Reformation Churches has deteriorated over the centuries to a “Have it your way theology.” Christians are instructed in the Word to hold to the doctrines passed down by the Apostles for Dogma and truth, which is PURE and undefiled religion.That has been the inspiration for the breaking away from the Main-Line Churches.It is the PURITY of Christ that calls us all to the striving for an Incorruptible Church, and that is not an EASY feat. That is why you have so many autonomous churches, some have gone too far, some have not gone far enough, but the fact still remains, they are all striving for the SAME goal in Purpose, endeavor and testimony.ONLY the Holy Spirit is able to ignite the fire of His Passion for the Godhead and the truth of the Gospel. So all believers strive for that relationship with the Holy Spirit to prune and perfect the Church.I do not think that on the issues of Abortion,Homosexuality(same sex marriage),Euthanasia,liberal agendas in politics(many of which are very anti-Christian) there is any comradely with the Main-Line Churches who support those issues vehemently.You may want to see many of the Main-line Members of faith come under the Umbrella of Rome, and there no doubt is much reconciliation in dialog,but unless you are a liberal Catholic, you will not want Main-Line Protestant theology to permeate the RCC.It is a mixture that has defiled the truth of Scripture in a way, even the cults have not done.But than again I would not be surprised in the near future, that many Main-Line Protestants become Roman Catholics, and in large numbers, because they will be disgusted with the immorality, and flip-floppy theology they have endured for centuries."If it feels good do it."Evangelicals however try to keep the doors of communication open with the many evangelicals who are in all the Perspective Main-line Churches. I forgot another main group of the Main-Line which is very large(Evangelical United Brethren)which is basically the theology of Calvinism in the Disciples of Christ movement which came out of Switzerland, Holland and Denmark.

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Non-Catholic Christians continued: Dan Ugaro. PRIDE, in some cases yes. But the overall operatus for the whole Christian movement outside of your “Church” is purity of doctrine and most of all separation from denominations which have literally dumped the solid truths of the Bible(Absolutes), for a creed that is liberal to the point of political rhetoric and affiliation.Although there are Evangelicals in the Main-Line churches, the infrastructure of the Reformation Churches has deteriorated over the centuries to a “Have it your way theology.” Christians are instructed in the Word to hold to the doctrines passed down by the Apostles for Dogma and truth, which is PURE and undefiled religion.That has been the inspiration for the breaking away from the Main-Line Churches.It is the PURITY of Christ that calls us all to the striving for an Incorruptible Church, and that is not an EASY feat. That is why you have so many autonomous churches, some have gone too far, some have not gone far enough, but the fact still remains, they are all striving for the SAME goal in Purpose, endeavor and testimony.ONLY the Holy Spirit is able to ignite the fire of His Passion for the Godhead and the truth of the Gospel. So all believers strive for that relationship with the Holy Spirit to prune and perfect the Church.I do not think that on the issues of Abortion,Homosexuality(same sex marriage),Euthanasia,liberal agendas in politics(many of which are very anti-Christian) there is any comradely with the Main-Line Churches who support those issues vehemently.You may want to see many of the Main-line Members of faith come under the Umbrella of Rome, and there no doubt is much reconciliation in dialog,but unless you are a liberal Catholic, you will not want Main-Line Protestant theology to permeate the RCC.It is a mixture that has defiled the truth of Scripture in a way, even the cults have not done.But than again I would not be surprised in the near future, that many Main-Line Protestants become Roman Catholics, and in large numbers, because they will be disgusted with the immorality, and flip-floppy theology they have endured for centuries."If it feels good do it."Evangelicals however try to keep the doors of communication open with the many evangelicals who are in all the Perspective Main-line Churches. I forgot another main group of the Main-Line which is very large(Evangelical United Brethren)which is basically the theology of Calvinism in the Disciples of Christ movement which came out of Switzerland, Holland and Denmark.

Continued: from Dan Ugaro. The Christian endeavor is to feed the homeless, and give shelter, to heal the brokenhearted and set the captives free. I hope that sounds familiar.The Purpose of the Christian is to bring individuals to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ in both truth and relationship with HIM.The Holy Spirit the Comforter brings this about, as the Holy Person who was sent by the Father and the Son, to instruct, bring Conviction of SIN, and to reveal the Holy Personage of the Lord Jesus Christ our greatest Example of a true Disciple of the Father.All that belongs to our LORD and what He has done for us all is the Testimony which we all should have on our lips to HIM, and for HIM, and in HIM. A rich testimony of Faith which is clearly visible to a dying world.We evangelicals are totally UNITED in this!All the rest is semantics and tradition and can be overlooked for the greater goal of the High Calling in Christ Jesus.The Holy Spirit is not confused about titles,names,groups,fellowships. He is able to still guide and direct using the Word of Truth as the Blueprint.The Bible is often referred to in our circles as" Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth!"We are not divided as you may think, and sometimes we make the mistake of not being careful enough to avoid the garbage that is out there. Perfection is only in Christ, and we stay focused on Him, and for the most part, you have a Church which is Spirit filled and baptized into One Body with the many members. Sorry if you do not agree. But it is a beautiful reality, and not as much a concern to God as it is to your quest for a UNITY under Rome.We know the scriptures very well about Jesus’ Prayer to the Father in John 17, and in Spirit and in truth that Unity is more than achieved.Human beings have the right to associated themselves with affiliations, even if we all do not have the same names or titles, WE Have the same CHRIST, and the same Purpose, Endeavor, and Testimony!

 

[Dan_Ugaro]

Continued: from Dan Ugaro. The Christian endeavor is to feed the homeless, and give shelter, to heal the brokenhearted and set the captives free. I hope that sounds familiar.The Purpose of the Christian is to bring individuals to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ in both truth and relationship with HIM.The Holy Spirit the Comforter brings this about, as the Holy Person who was sent by the Father and the Son, to instruct, bring Conviction of SIN, and to reveal the Holy Personage of the Lord Jesus Christ our greatest Example of a true Disciple of the Father.All that belongs to our LORD and what He has done for us all is the Testimony which we all should have on our lips to HIM, and for HIM, and in HIM. A rich testimony of Faith which is clearly visible to a dying world.We evangelicals are totally UNITED in this!All the rest is semantics and tradition and can be overlooked for the greater goal of the High Calling in Christ Jesus.The Holy Spirit is not confused about titles,names,groups,fellowships. He is able to still guide and direct using the Word of Truth as the Blueprint.The Bible is often referred to in our circles as" Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth!"We are not divided as you may think, and sometimes we make the mistake of not being careful enough to avoid the garbage that is out there. Perfection is only in Christ, and we stay focused on Him, and for the most part, you have a Church which is Spirit filled and baptized into One Body with the many members. Sorry if you do not agree. But it is a beautiful reality, and not as much a concern to God as it is to your quest for a UNITY under Rome.We know the scriptures very well about Jesus’ Prayer to the Father in John 17, and in Spirit and in truth that Unity is more than achieved.Human beings have the right to associated themselves with affiliations, even if we all do not have the same names or titles, WE Have the same CHRIST, and the same Purpose, Endeavor, and Testimony!

Finally, how does that apply to Orthodoxy, and Roman Catholicism? Surely as the Lord Jesus Christ is God, He is able to bring His S H E E P together into One Fold! Since He is that Fo l d as the Head of the Church, as so stated in Colossians chapter one especially; Christ is more than capable of gathering us altogether.I am not intrigued by titles, I am intrigued by What God can do in the life of an individual. Whether that person finds them self in an Orthodox Church, a Roman Catholic Church, or a non-Catholic Church, that is immaterial to me, and most believers, because we know in whom we believe, and that He is able"to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." God is the Author and Finisher of HIS Faith, and we comply to that Faith, which is vitality in the Holy Spirit and Eternal Life!Our identifying marks as S he e p, is first of all submission in Love to the Shepherd, secondly our fellowship one to another, as sheep they all herd together in harmony, and thirdly we all identify with the Shepherd! As the Sheep know HIS voice! It is all spiritual guys