Pope, Orthodox Patriarch look to new council at Nicea [CWN]

[7_Sorrows]

Thank you Yause and McCall1981 for your posts.
That makes it a little clearer.
Didn’t someone say that one issue which needs to be addressed is that the two churches try to come together on the days we celebrate Easter? They usually celebrate it later than we do.
Not sure about any other holidays. I suppose Pentecost would be different also.

 

[McCall1981]

Thank you Yause and McCall1981 for your posts.
That makes it a little clearer.
Didn’t someone say that one issue which needs to be addressed is that the two churches try to come together on the days we celebrate Easter? They usually celebrate it later than we do.
Not sure about any other holidays. I suppose Pentecost would be different also.

Yes, I think the date of Easter (Christmas too) is one of the issues, but as far as I know it’s not too big of a problem.

I think the biggest issues are the filioque, and the Petrine Primacy.

 

[Tomdstone]

Reunion is absolutely essential to counter protestantism, secular humanism and islam. Anybody stuck on theological quibbles needs to take his nose out of his books and take a look at the outside world.

Well, then: Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet the concerns of the Orthodox Church so that reunion can be established?

 

[Yause]

Well, then: Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet the concerns of the Orthodox Church so that reunion can be established?

These things are being discussed. However, there is no central authority within Eastern Orthodoxy, which makes reunion difficult even if the Catholic Church were to satisfy the doctrinal and political requirements of certain churches.

For example, two thirds of all EO Christians are under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church. However, their requirements for reunion include:

A resolution to the Eastern Catholic issue

Renunciation of any claim to papal primacy, except as a man-made title of honor

By extension, an end to the special authority currently exercised by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople

Some of these steps are unwanted by other Orthodox churches, let alone the Catholic Church. Let’s just say that we’re far from any reunion, even if current discussions prove to be fruitful.

 

[Tomdstone]

These things are being discussed. However, there is no central authority within Eastern Orthodoxy, which makes reunion difficult even if the Catholic Church were to satisfy the doctrinal and political requirements of certain churches.

For example, two thirds of all EO Christians are under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church. However, their requirements for reunion include:

A resolution to the Eastern Catholic issue

Renunciation of any claim to papal primacy, except as a man-made title of honor

By extension, an end to the special authority currently exercised by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople

Some of these steps are unwanted by other Orthodox churches, let alone the Catholic Church. Let’s just say that we’re far from any reunion, even if current discussions prove to be fruitful.

IMHO, reunion could occur tomorrow if the Catholic Church agreed to meet the concerns of the Orthodox Churches. This is clear even from the harsh letter written recently by two extremely hard line Orthodox bishops. Although there have been handshakes, smiles, discussions, prayers together between Catholic and Orthodox, nevertheless, IMHO, the Catholic Church has really not budged one bit from any of the positions which are not acceptable to the Orthodox Churches.

 

[Yause]

IMHO, reunion could occur tomorrow if the Catholic Church agreed to meet the concerns of the Orthodox Churches. This is clear even from the harsh letter written recently by two extremely hard line Orthodox bishops. Although there have been handshakes, smiles, discussions, prayers together between Catholic and Orthodox

It’s a no-go if the CC agrees to all requirements of the Moscow Patriarchate since other Orthodox churches would likely object (this specifically involves the Ecumenical Patriarch, who understands the disunity amidst unity that hurts the churches).

Excluding the Russian Orthodox Church from a “united” body is also unlikely since it has jurisdiction over the majority of Eastern Orthodox Christians. We’d go from one major schism to another.

When discussing unity, each church can only speak for itself. Essentially, there are three major players that need to compromise and come together in good faith.

nevertheless, IMHO, the Catholic Church has really not budged one bit from any of the positions which are not acceptable to the Orthodox Churches.

On an official level, this is correct. When I refer to discussion though, I mean joint commissions. No policies have been proposed yet and progress has been slow, but the issues are being examined.

Discussion at the highest levels probably won’t happen until the joint commissions show enough promise.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Yes, I think the date of Easter (Christmas too) is one of the issues, but as far as I know it’s not too big of a problem.

I think the biggest issues are the filioque, and the Petrine Primacy.

Yes the filoque and petrine primacy are 2 big issues definitely that may never be agreed on. It must be really confusing to the rest of the world that the 2 biggest religious celebrations in christianity are celebrated on different dates. It would be great if we could unite on christmas and easter dates.

 

[Yause]

Yes the filoque and petrine primacy are 2 big issues definitely that may never be agreed on. It must be really confusing to the rest of the world that the 2 biggest religious celebrations in christianity are celebrated on different dates. It would be great if we could unite on christmas and easter dates.

While it’s a historical and symbolic point of contention, I’m not sure if the filioque is a deal breaker. Its expression is non-mandatory in the Catholic Church, and if it were the final obstacle preventing unity, I suspect they would eliminate it (should an Orthodox church resist it to the end).

Many Orthodox believe that western Christians understate the differences between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. To us, semantics and politics divide the churches, but several Orthodox theologians have grave fundamental concerns, even regarding changes that occurred before the schism. The differences may not have broken unity at the time, but that doesn’t mean there was ever much agreement (theological development by St. Augustine would be a prime example. For centuries, it didn’t end communion - perhaps the churches agreed to disagree out of convenience or maybe language barriers prevented a thorough debate from taking place - but prominent theologians and patriarchs have since condemned it. From the Catholic side, we’ve had similar concerns over the Orthodox concept of economy and its perceived abuses).

At any rate, reconciliation will be more challenging than simply uncovering what was acceptable during the first millennium. Besides, it was a pretty divisive unity, and for the Church to last, greater solidarity is essential.

 

[Tomdstone]

On an official level, this is correct.

Well, if the Catholic church has not budged one bit from any of the positions which are objectionable for the Orthodox, then has it really made the effort necessary to effect a reunion?
What you are saying, that Orthodox Churches disagree among themselves on some issues, sounds like an excuse to do nothing.
It is pretty obvious that if they really wanted to, the Catholic Church could, on its own initiative, introduce certain substantial reforms that would be pleasing to the Orthodox Churches. I can easily think of several such reforms, and many of these are in fact outlined in a harsh letter written by two very hardline Orthodox bishops.
The Catholic Church has had 960 years to straighten things out with the Orthodox. How many more years are required?
Also, (IMHO) I doubt that this meeting at Nicea will be a council. I suspect that it will be just another get-together photo opportunity, complete with handshaking, hugs, kisses, beautiful speeches and expressions of goodwill toward all, and how each Church admires and respects the other, but that nothing in the way of the necessary substantial reform to effect reunion will be accomplished (IMHO). After the “council”, (IMHO) there will still be two separate Churches, not in communion, at least partially because of the unfortunate fact that the Catholic Church has been reluctant for 960 years to make any substantial concessions to the Orthodox and it remains reluctant to do so, at least up until now.
Anyway, being realistic about the situation, that is how it looks to me.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Well, if the Catholic church has not budged one bit from any of the positions which are objectionable for the Orthodox, then has it really made the effort necessary to effect a reunion?
What you are saying, that Orthodox Churches disagree among themselves on some issues, sounds like an excuse to do nothing.
It is pretty obvious that if they really wanted to, the Catholic Church could, on its own initiative, introduce certain substantial reforms that would be pleasing to the Orthodox Churches. I can easily think of several such reforms, and many of these are in fact outlined in a harsh letter written by two very hardline Orthodox bishops.
The Catholic Church has had 960 years to straighten things out with the Orthodox. How many more years are required?
Also, (IMHO) I doubt that this meeting at Nicea will be a council. I suspect that it will be just another get-together photo opportunity, complete with handshaking, hugs, kisses, beautiful speeches and expressions of goodwill toward all, and how each Church admires and respects the other, but that nothing in the way of the necessary substantial reform to effect reunion will be accomplished (IMHO). After the “council”, (IMHO) there will still be two separate Churches, not in communion, at least partially because of the unfortunate fact that the Catholic Church has been reluctant for 960 years to make any substantial concessions to the Orthodox and it remains reluctant to do so, at least up until now.
Anyway, being realistic about the situation, that is how it looks to me.

The Catholic Church can never change its teachings on the role of the Papacy, nor should it so its really up to the Orthodox Church, as a measure of good faith, to show some humility to admit that it was wrong to separate from Christ’s Church and seek forgiveness for its pride.

 

[McCall1981]

Well, if the Catholic church has not budged one bit from any of the positions which are objectionable for the Orthodox, then has it really made the effort necessary to effect a reunion?
What you are saying, that Orthodox Churches disagree among themselves on some issues, sounds like an excuse to do nothing.
It is pretty obvious that if they really wanted to, the Catholic Church could, on its own initiative, introduce certain substantial reforms that would be pleasing to the Orthodox Churches. I can easily think of several such reforms, and many of these are in fact outlined in a harsh letter written by two very hardline Orthodox bishops.
The Catholic Church has had 960 years to straighten things out with the Orthodox. How many more years are required?
Also, (IMHO) I doubt that this meeting at Nicea will be a council. I suspect that it will be just another get-together photo opportunity, complete with handshaking, hugs, kisses, beautiful speeches and expressions of goodwill toward all, and how each Church admires and respects the other, but that nothing in the way of the necessary substantial reform to effect reunion will be accomplished (IMHO). After the “council”, (IMHO) there will still be two separate Churches, not in communion, at least partially because of the unfortunate fact that the Catholic Church has been reluctant for 960 years to make any substantial concessions to the Orthodox and it remains reluctant to do so, at least up until now.
Anyway, being realistic about the situation, that is how it looks to me.

Why do you keep putting all responsibility on the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t just as much be about the Orthodox Churches budging a bit towards the Catholic Church?

 

[Tomdstone]

Why do you keep putting all responsibility on the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t just as much be about the Orthodox Churches budging a bit towards the Catholic Church?

The Orthodox Churches don’t appear to be very eager about reunion (IMHO). They seem to be satisfied with staying the way that they are.

 

[Allegra]

I find it pretty hard to believe that the issue keeping theChurch fractured is the date of Easter. It hardly matters when it is celebrated so long as it is celebrated!

 

[7_Sorrows]

Why do you keep putting all responsibility on the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t just as much be about the Orthodox Churches budging a bit towards the Catholic Church?

I don’t think he is Catholic so maybe he does not know the history of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I find it pretty hard to believe that the issue keeping theChurch fractured is the date of Easter. It hardly matters when it is celebrated so long as it is celebrated!

Well, let’s see. Associated with Easter is Ash Wednesday, Lent, Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Vigil, Easter Sunday, Easter Monday, the Sundays following Easter leading up to the Ascension and finally Pentecost. You can’t just pick a date on the calendar and call it Easter. I believe the difference is 2 different calendars being used but since Jesus was in Jerusalem for Passover before he was arrested and Holy Thursday was the Last Supper Jesus celebrated with the apostles, the Jewish holiday of Passover and our Easter usually occur close together. If I am mistaken please feel free to correct me. It would at least be one sign of unity if they could at least come together on the most important religious holidays in Christianity.

 

[keenforgod]

I think it is fascinating that the two Church leaders will be meeting. Even if there is little progress, the symbolism of the meeting is profound in itself. I pray for our Church!

 

[Tomdstone]

I don’t think he is Catholic so maybe he does not know the history of the Roman Catholic Church.

This is basically an “ad hominem” argument. What that means is that you attack the person rather than giving any substantive answer to the issues raised. Generally, this form of argumentation is used when someone realizes his case is weak and so rather than respond in substance, they attack the person because of his character or his religion, etc.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

This is basically an “ad hominem” argument. What that means is that you attack the person rather than giving any substantive answer to the issues raised. Generally, this form of argumentation is used when someone realizes his case is weak and so rather than respond in substance, they attack the person because of his character or his religion, etc.

Not really an ad hominem argument because 7 Sorrows reply was to an inquiry from McCall where it is asked of you why all responsibility is placed on the Catholic Church. You haven’t explained in great detail why the onus is on the Catholic Church and not the Orthodox Church.

You also list your religion as “other” which to reasonable people would imply that its not Catholic.

Why do you keep putting all responsibility on the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t just as much be about the Orthodox Churches budging a bit towards the Catholic Church?

I don’t think he is Catholic so maybe he does not know the history of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[7_Sorrows]

This is basically an “ad hominem” argument. What that means is that you attack the person rather than giving any substantive answer to the issues raised. Generally, this form of argumentation is used when someone realizes his case is weak and so rather than respond in substance, they attack the person because of his character or his religion, etc.

I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn’t attacking you.
It says “other” where most posters state their religious status - catholic, baptist, muslim, agnostic, atheist, buddhist, lutheran, lds as examples. If I didn’t know the history of the Roman Catholic Church I would probably come to the same conclusion that you did. Hope that makes sense.

 

[7_Sorrows]

The Catholic Church can never change its teachings on the role of the Papacy, nor should it so its really up to the Orthodox Church, as a measure of good faith, to show some humility to admit that it was wrong to separate from Christ’s Church and seek forgiveness for its pride.

I agree. Politics, geography, east vs. west were contributing factors and I believe the Catholic church has apologized for some of its actions that happened before the split.