Pope personally calls Traditional Catholic writer, says he considers it important to be criticized

[agnes_therese]

Hmm…let’s see…

Bill Maher, President Obama, Cenk Uygur, NARAL Pro Choice America, Human Rights Campaign, President Napolitano, even one of my favorite authors has expressed some kind admiration for him. All because they think that Francis is on the same page as they are.

I expect to be hated by these people! And they do, to some extent.

Heck, even my JPII-loving friend admits that the main reason the world likes Francis is because… he’s not like Benedict.

So by all means, forbid them to love Pope Francis. My goodness, that love might even lead to them actually thinking about what he says, and then wondering if there’s truth in it, and then considering if they need to change their lives . . .
No, mustn’t have that! The horror!!

 

[RedCaves]

So by all means, forbid them to love Pope Francis. My goodness, that love might even lead to them actually thinking about what he says, and then wondering if there’s truth in it, and then considering if they need to change their lives . . .
No, mustn’t have that! The horror!!

Apparently, you still don’t understand the major concern here.

These individuals that I named only want to hear Francis say statements that corroborate their own beliefs. They are genuinely convinced that atheists are already saved because he says so, that the Church is obsessed with abortion and homosexuality because he says so, and that the Church must literally be poor for the poor because he says so.

If Francis starts to say things like “Abortion is evil, acting gay is wrong, only in Catholicism will you find truth”, they will stop liking him, give him the proverbial middle finger, and ignore him.

I highly doubt they are listening and loving Francis because they are critically thinking about what he says. As long as he acts the way the world wants him to act, they won’t despise him.

Understand now???

 

[McCall1981]

Apparently, you still don’t understand the major concern here.

These individuals that I named only want to hear Francis say statements that corroborate their own beliefs. They are genuinely convinced that atheists are already saved because he says so, that the Church is obsessed with abortion and homosexuality because he says so, and that the Church must literally be poor for the poor because he says so.

If Francis starts to say things like “Abortion is evil, acting gay is wrong, only in Catholicism will you find truth”, they will stop liking him, give him the proverbial middle finger, and ignore him.

I highly doubt they are listening and loving Francis because they are critically thinking about what he says. As long as he acts the way the world wants him to act, they won’t despise him.

Understand now???

I agree with you, there are unfortunately a lot of people that like him for the wrong reasons, which is bad. I think though that this phenomenon is starting, slowly, to change now. For the people that pay attention to Church news/issues, I think its starting to become more apparent that he isn’t actually what those people want him to be, and so we’re starting to see those people turn away from him. So the process youre talking about is happening gradually, its just slow and hasn’t really made it to the general public (ie. people that get their Church news from Yahoo headlines) yet.

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t expect them to change. Ever.

I am the enemy in their eyes and likewise them to me.

They’ve made their choices. They’ve decided what’s important in their lives. They know which side of the war they are on.

The last thing any Catholic needs is to find out that their enemies praise our Holy Father because he’s not like the previous popes and that he’s acting like a “real Christian”, according to the world’s standards.

One of the few things that keeps me sane about Francis is that I hope he has a similar experience that Pius IX went through in 1848. Only then will things return to normal: The world hating the Pope and everything he stands for because he doesn’t go along with what the world believes.

You sound concerned about Pope Francis, that he may be saying things that appeal to people you may not have forgiven.

The “world’s standards”, at least in America, is that of lack of reconciliation. We have liberals v. conservatives, Jews vs. Muslims, environmentalists v. non-environmentalists, etc. etc. The Christian value of forgiveness gets lost in all of the arguing and enmity.

I am an activist too, and I have concerns about things, but the Christian face to the world is one of reconciliation, not enmity:

Mark 11:25-26

New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Give it a try, RedCaves. Make a difference in the world, do what you think is right, but do so with a reconciled heart, do so with love of enemy in mind. How do we love our enemy? Start by forgiving. This is our calling. I know its hard, RedCaves, but you aren’t the only one who finds it hard. We can support each other. How do we spread the “Good News” with resentment in our voices?

 

[RedCaves]

You sound concerned about Pope Francis, that he may be saying things that appeal to people you may not have forgiven.

The “world’s standards”, at least in America, is that of lack of reconciliation. We have liberals v. conservatives, Jews vs. Muslims, environmentalists v. non-environmentalists, etc. etc. The Christian value of forgiveness gets lost in all of the arguing and enmity.

I am an activist too, and I have concerns about things, but the Christian face to the world is one of reconciliation, not enmity:

Mark 11:25-26

New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Give it a try, RedCaves. Make a difference in the world, do what you think is right, but do so with a reconciled heart, do so with love of enemy in mind. How do we love our enemy? Start by forgiving. This is our calling. I know its hard, RedCaves, but you aren’t the only one who finds it hard. We can support each other. How do we spread the “Good News” with resentment in our voices?

This is not an issue of forgiveness. It is an issue of justice and logic.

Letting heretics be heretics and apostates be apostates is simple enough, what makes the whole issue difficult is that these same people are waiting for Francis to say something that contradicts Catholicism. Apparently, they have already believed that he has said something contradictory for quite awhile.

And then when you read the headlines that “Oh, the pope is doing something that none of his predecessors ever did” and "The Pope is a liberal, we nonbelievers, gays, spiritualists, and heterodox catholics LOVE that! Go Francis! Get rid of the out of date orthodox catholics in the Vatican"

These people have their joy misplaced. They should not be telling others lies that the pope is one of them.

These people don’t care about reconciliation; they care more about stimulating their sex organs without someone telling them to think critically about the morality behind it.

What does being an “activist” have anything to do with this conversation?

For the sake of my spiritual sanity, I try not to think much about Francis. (Why did you do it, Benedict? )

My only hope is that he’s another Pius IX hidden somewhere inside his personality. If and when it happens, I’ll gladly shout, “Long Live Francis!”

Until then, I’ll try to find something that will strengthen my faith. I desperately need it.

 

[agnes_therese]

Apparently, you still don’t understand the major concern here.

These individuals that I named only want to hear Francis say statements that corroborate their own beliefs. They are genuinely convinced that atheists are already saved because he says so, that the Church is obsessed with abortion and homosexuality because he says so, and that the Church must literally be poor for the poor because he says so.

If Francis starts to say things like “Abortion is evil, acting gay is wrong, only in Catholicism will you find truth”, they will stop liking him, give him the proverbial middle finger, and ignore him.

I highly doubt they are listening and loving Francis because they are critically thinking about what he says. As long as he acts the way the world wants him to act, they won’t despise him.

Understand now???

I understood you perfectly in the first place, thank you.

 

[OneSheep]

This is not an issue of forgiveness. It is an issue of justice and logic.

Hmmm. Well, yes it is a matter of forgiveness. Answer the question, RedCaves, do you hold something against those people?

To me, Pope Francis is showing the world that Christians love and forgive. Sure, some people will interpret such forgiveness as approval of misdeed, but that is a misperception.

The Holy Father is showing his flock how to make a difference in the world. Sure, we cannot let bad things happen, but we can certainly forgive all the people involved before we hit the road trying to make a difference. You seem to be trying to make a difference by writing on this forum, but your voice, as I am hearing it, is one of resentment towards certain people.

Part of forgiveness is seeing people’s good intent. Can you see Obama’s good intent? Can you see Pope Francis’?

Letting heretics be heretics and apostates be apostates is simple enough, what makes the whole issue difficult is that these same people are waiting for Francis to say something that contradicts Catholicism. Apparently, they have already believed that he has said something contradictory for quite awhile.

If we say “that person is a ______” (fill in the blank with something negative), then we are contradicting Catholicism. If we are holding onto hatred and resentment toward anyone, we are contradicting Catholicism:

“first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye”

Please, do not fall into the trap that so many other American Catholics have fallen into. Voiced resentment has become so pervasive in the media that resentment itself is seen as a virtue. We can forgive people’s resentment, but we are not to encourage it. Please, forgive those you hate.

And then when you read the headlines that “Oh, the pope is doing something that none of his predecessors ever did” and "The Pope is a liberal, we nonbelievers, gays, spiritualists, and heterodox catholics LOVE that! Go Francis! Get rid of the out of date orthodox catholics in the Vatican"

These people have their joy misplaced. They should not be telling others lies that the pope is one of them.

But the Pope is one of them, and so was our wonderful ex-officio. We are all sinners.

These people don’t care about reconciliation; they care more about stimulating their sex organs without someone telling them to think critically about the morality behind it.

Possibly. Please join me in encouraging reconciliation among people. And repentance.

For the sake of my spiritual sanity, I try not to think much about Francis. (Why did you do it, Benedict? )

DO think about it! That is a great question! seek, and ye shall find. As a priest once told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand.” Find people’s good intent, it is always there. Always.

My only hope is that he’s another Pius IX hidden somewhere inside his personality. If and when it happens, I’ll gladly shout, “Long Live Francis!”

Until then, I’ll try to find something that will strengthen my faith. I desperately need it.

Your faith will be strengthened through forgiveness. I know, you don’t want to hear that. You are feeling pretty upset about Pope Francis’ words, and you want him to say different things. That’s okay, and it is understandable. I don’t hold it against you.

 

[McCall1981]

This is not an issue of forgiveness. It is an issue of justice and logic.

Letting heretics be heretics and apostates be apostates is simple enough, what makes the whole issue difficult is that these same people are waiting for Francis to say something that contradicts Catholicism. Apparently, they have already believed that he has said something contradictory for quite awhile.

And then when you read the headlines that “Oh, the pope is doing something that none of his predecessors ever did” and "The Pope is a liberal, we nonbelievers, gays, spiritualists, and heterodox catholics LOVE that! Go Francis! Get rid of the out of date orthodox catholics in the Vatican"

These people have their joy misplaced. They should not be telling others lies that the pope is one of them.

These people don’t care about reconciliation; they care more about stimulating their sex organs without someone telling them to think critically about the morality behind it.

What does being an “activist” have anything to do with this conversation?

For the sake of my spiritual sanity, I try not to think much about Francis. (Why did you do it, Benedict? )

My only hope is that he’s another Pius IX hidden somewhere inside his personality. If and when it happens, I’ll gladly shout, “Long Live Francis!”

Until then, I’ll try to find something that will strengthen my faith. I desperately need it.

The bolded is a good way of putting it.

 

[RedCaves]

Hmmm. Well, yes it is a matter of forgiveness. Answer the question, RedCaves, do you hold something against those people?

To me, Pope Francis is showing the world that Christians love and forgive. Sure, some people will interpret such forgiveness as approval of misdeed, but that is a misperception.

The Holy Father is showing his flock how to make a difference in the world. Sure, we cannot let bad things happen, but we can certainly forgive all the people involved before we hit the road trying to make a difference. You seem to be trying to make a difference by writing on this forum, but your voice, as I am hearing it, is one of resentment towards certain people.

Part of forgiveness is seeing people’s good intent. Can you see Obama’s good intent? Can you see Pope Francis’?

If we say “that person is a ______” (fill in the blank with something negative), then we are contradicting Catholicism. If we are holding onto hatred and resentment toward anyone, we are contradicting Catholicism:

“first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye”

Please, do not fall into the trap that so many other American Catholics have fallen into. Voiced resentment has become so pervasive in the media that resentment itself is seen as a virtue. We can forgive people’s resentment, but we are not to encourage it. Please, forgive those you hate.

But the Pope is one of them, and so was our wonderful ex-officio. We are all sinners.

Possibly. Please join me in encouraging reconciliation among people. And repentance.

DO think about it! That is a great question! seek, and ye shall find. As a priest once told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand.” Find people’s good intent, it is always there. Always.

Your faith will be strengthened through forgiveness. I know, you don’t want to hear that. You are feeling pretty upset about Pope Francis’ words, and you want him to say different things. That’s okay, and it is understandable. I don’t hold it against you.

1. *Do I hold something against these people? *
   Yes, I do. Any Catholic should. They are guilty of blasphemy against Catholicism. (Do you live under a rock? Haven’t you heard their comments against the Pope and the Church before Francis was elected?) Bill Maher is a good one. Look him up. I’m not lying when I say he hates Catholicism.
2. Tell me, what is Obama’s good intent on Francis? Is it a “Thank you for upholding Catholic Doctrine?” Or is it a “Thank you for chastising pro-lifers and those who dare say that homosexual behavior isn’t a big deal?” Which is it?
3. I have no idea what is Francis’s intent. Enlighten me.
4. In terms of calling people heretics or apostates, I simply say it like it is. I won’t sugar-coat the truth because it tastes too bitter for you. We should only hate one thing: Evil. Or am I wrong about that, too?
5. I know that we are sinners. God knows that I am not proud of things that I have done in the past. I wish to improve in my spiritual life. But it’s difficult and sometimes impossible because I cannot trust the people that claim to have the answer in growing with God, but are actually heterodox individuals who are trying to undermine the Church.
6. I have come to a bitter conclusion that I have been unfair in my assessment of people sins while I have my own unresolved sins. In general, I do not care about other people because how can I if I have not solved my own problems that make it difficult to be more Christ-like?

It’s a bit disconcerting that you find nothing questionable in how Francis acts or says.

 

[Cojuanco]

What I mean to say was that with all his comments he has made, “Who am I to judge?”, “Proselytism is nonsense”, “restorationists and rosary-counters are pelagians”, “church is obsessed with abortion”, “Everyone has their own idea of right and wrong”, and MANY MORE have made him be loved by the wrong people. It has also confused people into trying to find out what he means by all of this.

The old, “the media misinterprets him” is quickly becoming a cop-out.

Granted, the media is, pardon my language, very retarded when it comes to telling the truth, but even a broken clock is right once in a while.

If the Current Pontiff is aware of what criticisms are directed at him, then this would be a golden opportunity to clarify himself or admit that he has not been misunderstood (the latter would be a huge nightmare)

1. This was in the context of him describing a priest - a real priest - who once was given to perversion early in his life, but has repented and is by all accounts a good priest. Also, as I sincerely doubt that the Pope heard his confession (and even if he did, there is the Seal of the Confessional), he has no right to judge - only Christ, acting through the priest in the confession, can objectively judge a penitent.
2. Proselytism in that context means the sort of aggresive attempt to convert people for the sake of converting people, as opposed to missionary efforts, which invite the unbeliever to see Catholicism and Catholics, and convince him to convert that way. That’s how a Jesuit would understand the term.
3. Well, yes, that could very well be true. It would be Pelagianism to suggest that to do this for the sake only of doing it would yield results without the cultivation of the virtues. There are also supersitious practices that seem to think that saying so many rosaries will guarantee something the rosary cannot provide - you know, those leaflets you see oftentimes superstitious people leave in the pews after Mass? that your wish will be granted if you say so many rosaries and leave 16 copies of this in the pews of your church, your wish will be granted? And for restorationists, he means the sedes, the SSPX and the like.
4. Some quarters are obsessed with abortion. They seem to have forgotten that there are other components to Catholic Social Teaching - or have downplayed them because their Protestant friends would look askance on them.

 

[Cojuanco]

The bolded is a good way of putting it.

The liberal politicians take the fact that the Pope supports Catholic Social Teaching, which is somewhat congruent with parts of their platform, and assume he must therefore agree with the entirety of their platform. They, of course, are deluded, just as they are deluded that life does not begin at conception, or that two men can really marry each other. They conveniently ignore this, just as many Americans thought because Benedict agreed with them on abortion (and Francis does as well, but beside the point for now) hr must agree with their policies on dealing with the poor and the immigrant, or when one may go to war. Americans are very good at cherry-picking what the Pope, any Pope says.

 

[OneSheep]

1. *Do I hold something against these people? *
   Yes, I do. Any Catholic should. They are guilty of blasphemy against Catholicism. (Do you live under a rock? Haven’t you heard their comments against the Pope and the Church before Francis was elected?) Bill Maher is a good one. Look him up. I’m not lying when I say he hates Catholicism.

So, should every Catholic defy these words?:

Mark 11:25-26

New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

I could address the rest of your response, but I need to run to work. I can get back to this tomorrow, I hope.

 

[OneSheep]

1. I have come to a bitter conclusion that I have been unfair in my assessment of people sins while I have my own unresolved sins. In general, I do not care about other people because how can I if I have not solved my own problems that make it difficult to be more Christ-like?

It’s a bit disconcerting that you find nothing questionable in how Francis acts or says.

You are feeling disappointed in some of Pope Francis’ actions and words, and you want him to address the sins of the world with a harsher tone, one that reflects the anger you feel toward certain groups and individuals. This is all understandable. When I see words and actions that go against my conscience, I react, and I get into the “who can I punish” mode. I have learned that when I feel and perceive in such ways, it is time to forgive.

In saying that you have been “unfair” in your assessments":

If this is a “bitter conclusion”, this is also the activity of your conscience. You feel guilty about judging others, but at the same time you are protecting a very important set of values.

To me, our values are part of who we are, they reflect our experiences and our affiliations. As we protect our values, we are protecting ourselves as well as the people that we love. However, when I judge others, I become blinded to their value, my mind thinks of those I judge as having a value less than mosquitoes. This was the condition of the crowd who hung Jesus when He forgave them.

So, you are behaving out of good intent, but your judgment is accompanied, perhaps, by this automatic blindness that is arguably part of the conscience. We can find all people’s good intent within the context of our appetites and our capacity for blindness and ignorance. Many, many, people are ignorant of the value of the unborn, for example, and see overpopulation as a Great Evil. They protect their values of conservation of world resource while angrily protecting a “woman’s right”, even though females are more likely aborted in the world. This is a matter of ignorance of the life, and blindness in judging others that oppose them. They are well-intended in their own view, and in the views of many.

So, this is a means of finding good intent. I pray that you can find your own good intent, and can take the steps to forgive yourself and others. You are a good person, RedCaves, the issues in the world will not go away as you put some energy into forgiving yourself and others. You can come back to the issues later. This is the same concept as Mark 11:25.