Pope Pius Display Includes Rabbi's Thank You

[LDNCatholic]

Jews were to be first (I’m from a German-Jewish family) - had the Reich won the war, the Slavs were to be next - Eastern Europe and ‘European Russia’ were to be cleared (apart from slave laborers) to provide ‘living space’ for the German People.

There. It would seem a Jewish person agrees with me, I would agree that the Jews would be first, but then after that everyone else would follow.

 

[LDNCatholic]

It was a rather broad and inaccurate swipe and I brought your attention to it.

Well given the general nature of certain threads concerning the Jews, if you have a look back, you will see why I made this statement.

 

[Soutane]

I would like to know why Kaninchen deigns not to read Rabbi Dallin’s book.If necessary I will purchase it and send it to her,although I can ill afford it…

 

[Soutane]

Well given the general nature of certain threads concerning the Jews, if you have a look back, you will see why I made this statement.

We’re not talking about past threads we’re talking about THIS one.Sweeping generalizations do not help and I repeat that I resent being scolded by you.If you have specific complaints to make address them to the person you wish to criticise,as I am doing.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

There. It would seem a Jewish person agrees with me, I would agree that the Jews would be first, but then after that everyone else would follow.

**But this isn’t what you said in your earlier posts! :banghead: **

 

[LDNCatholic]

**But this isn’t what you said in your earlier posts! :banghead: **

No, you implied that I said other groups were more hated, I didn’t. One death is a tragedy, if any one person was killed by Hitler because of their ethnicity then he hated them. Simple as.

It was implied earlier that Hitler just hated the Jews, I pointed out that this was not the case.

 

[Kaninchen]

The thing is that it’s a ‘Catholic Problem’ not a ‘Jewish Problem’ really - quite how the Church managed to find itself in the Slovakia and Croatia situations, for example, should be rather thought-provoking. Then, again, German Catholics held out well against the rise of the NSDAP while, over the border, in France, French Catholics were involved in some pretty nasty groups during the same era.

It’s my guess that a lot of the problems the Church has faced in Europe since the war have their roots in that period.

 

[LDNCatholic]

We’re not talking about past threads we’re talking about THIS one.Sweeping generalizations do not help and I repeat that I resent being scolded by you.If you have specific complaints to make address them to the person you wish to criticise,as I am doing.

It was a joke. I’ll not apologise for making a joke. Read some of the toxic, downright EVIL things that have been said on this forum and then you will understand why I made it. You are very new to this forum and have not seen the horrible threads made in the past few months and years. Thankfully most are deleted and the offenders banned. I will apologise if you were offended but that is all I will do. Trying to lighten the mood of what will (mark my words) become a deleted thread if some other members jump on board, is not a crime.

Once again, sorry if you were offended but thats all.

 

[cathopologist]

This is exactly what I was thinking. THE POPE DIDN’T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING! IT WAS NOT HIS PROBLEM! WHERE WAS ISRAEL AND IT’S COMMANDO’S???

I guess i may have overstated my anger in my post, and i apologize to any Jew reading my human emotions put into words. The Blessed Pope Pius need not do anything - this is true. But if he didn’t, he wouldn’t be practicing Christian charity and love. He was the voice of the oppressed when other churches kept silent.

I guess everyone expects higher standards when it comes to the Catholic Church - what they forget is that we do not have the ammunition needed to destroy the Nazis. Not that we need ammo, but fighting against an army of darkness through strong condemnation is at the very most, futile. Still, Pope Pius did what he could. The Rabbis of today need to recognize and realize his bravery - especially when it meant he could have lost his life in the process. Many Catholic priests bravely opposed Nazism, as did the Orthodox churches and their priests. The Rabbis should pray for the dead priests who helped their people without considering their own lives.

 

[Kaninchen]

I guess everyone expects higher standards when it comes to the Catholic Church - what they forget is that we do not have the ammunition needed to destroy the Nazis. Not that we need ammo, but fighting against an army of darkness through strong condemnation is at the very most, futile. Still, Pope Pius did what he could. The Rabbis of today need to recognize and realize his bravery - especially when it meant he could have lost his life in the process. Many Catholic priests bravely opposed Nazism, as did the Orthodox churches and their priests. The Rabbis should pray for the dead priests who helped their people without considering their own lives.

That all sounds very nice but it’s a tremendous over-simplification.

The real damage had been done over the centuries - as JPII understood - but, in terms of the argument here, Pius and the individual national churches were ‘between a rock and a hard place’ where fear of Bolshevism was to place them in a range of relationships with all sorts of Authoritarian/Fascist movements (promising strong opposition to Communism and socialism) in Central and Western Europe.

Beyond that, of course, there were the individual consciences and actions of Church members themselves - there were Catholics in the resistance, there were Catholics in the SS, there were Churches that stood up well to the Reich, there were Churches like those in Slovakia and Croatia where the story was quite different.

It’s in these sorts of complexities that the complex truth lies - one should not forget the good in the midst of the bad but one should not forget the bad in the midst of the good either.

One does not have to believe Pius was a bad or a weak man to refuse to accept over-simplification.

 

[cathopologist]

That all sounds very nice but it’s a tremendous over-simplification.

By simply asserting Rabbis need to come to terms and recognize the endearments of Catholics who helped their people?

The real damage had been done over the centuries - as JPII understood - but, in terms of the argument here, Pius and the individual national churches were ‘between a rock and a hard place’ where fear of Bolshevism was to place them in a range of relationships with all sorts of Authoritarian/Fascist movements (promising strong opposition to Communism and socialism) in Central and Western Europe.

Gullibility exists in all people. Catholic or not. Jew or not.

Beyond that, of course, there were the individual consciences and actions of Church members themselves - there were Catholics in the resistance, there were Catholics in the SS…

There are also Jews who deny the Holocaust. They are Jews in Aryan movements, there are Jewish members in one of the most secretive gangs (Nazi in its core beliefs) in U.S prisons, etc. Of course, they do not form the majority as did Catholics who took part in Jewish massacres in the past.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I guess i may have overstated my anger in my post, and i apologize to any Jew reading my human emotions put into words. The Blessed Pope Pius need not do anything - this is true. But if he didn’t, he wouldn’t be practicing Christian charity and love. He was the voice of the oppressed when other churches kept silent.

I guess everyone expects higher standards when it comes to the Catholic Church - what they forget is that we do not have the ammunition needed to destroy the Nazis. Not that we need ammo, but fighting against an army of darkness through strong condemnation is at the very most, futile. Still, Pope Pius did what he could. The Rabbis of today need to recognize and realize his bravery - especially when it meant he could have lost his life in the process. Many Catholic priests bravely opposed Nazism, as did the Orthodox churches and their priests. The Rabbis should pray for the dead priests who helped their people without considering their own lives.

Yes, I absolutely and unequivacably agree.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I will end this thread by saying people **Stop blaming the Catholic church for everything that happened in history. **Thank you.

 

[Kaninchen]

By simply asserting Rabbis need to come to terms and recognize the endearments of Catholics who helped their people?

The Righteous Among The Nations.

Gullibility exists in all people. Catholic or not. Jew or not.

I wasn’t actually accusing them of gullibility - I was talking about them making difficult choices in a very threatening world after 1917. Was the Spanish Church ‘gullible’ in backing Franco, for example? It chose the side that it thought would maintain its values and traditions - in the short/medium term it could be argued that it was right, in the long term, however, it may have been a disastrous decision.

There are also Jews who deny the Holocaust.

Perhaps we should look at your candidates.

They are Jews in Aryan movements,

Don’t tell the Aryans.

there are Jewish members in one of the most secretive gangs (Nazi in its core beliefs) in U.S prisons, etc.

Tell us more.

 

[cathopologist]

I wasn’t actually accusing them of gullibility - I was talking about them making difficult choices in a very threatening world after 1917. Was the Spanish Church ‘gullible’ in backing Franco, for example? It chose the side that it thought would maintain its values and traditions - in the short/medium term it could be argued that it was right, in the long term, however, it may have been a disastrous decision.

Was the Spanish Church gullible? Honestly, i do not know for only a Catholic Spaniard can answer that for you. What is apparent is that remnants of Franco have been removed from Spain. They want nothing to do with the past, as with the Germans.

Perhaps we should look at your candidates.

[

Israeli police have broken up a neo-Nazi cell that had been carrying out attacks on religious Jews, homosexuals, drug addicts and workers, in a case that has shocked the Jewish state.

](The Times & The Sunday Times)

The youths, who had Nazi tattoos and allegedly celebrated Adolf Hitler’s birthday, belonged to Soviet Jewish families who had migrated to Israel under its law of return, which allows people with at least one Jewish grandparent to become Israeli citizens.
**Under strict religious rules, however, many of the former Soviet immigrants are not considered to be Jewish. **

I took the liberty to bold prominent lines. Once born a Jew, you die a Jew, right? Also, there are some like Moshe Aryeh Friedman who doubt the figure of six millions Jews executed and estimates it to be only a million.

Tell us more.

Read the article above. If that can happen in Israel, what makes you think there are no paradoxical misguided Jews who belong to neo-Nazi gangs in U.S prisons? Do you watch Nat Geo’s “Lockdown”?

 

[Kaninchen]

Was the Spanish Church gullible? Honestly, i do not know for only a Catholic Spaniard can answer that for you. What is apparent is that remnants of Franco have been removed from Spain. They want nothing to do with the past, as with the Germans.

I wasn’t suggesting that they were gullible, I was suggesting that they made a calculated decision.

%between%I took the liberty to bold prominent lines. Once born a Jew, you die a Jew, right? Also, there are some like Moshe Aryeh Friedman who doubt the figure of six millions Jews executed and estimates it to be only a million.

Who are these ‘some like Moshe Aryeh Friedman’?

Under Jewish law, you’re a Jew if your mother was a Jew or if you convert to Judaism. If you convert to Christianity you’re no longer a Jew.

Read the article above. If that can happen in Israel, what makes you think there are no paradoxical misguided Jews who belong to neo-Nazi gangs in U.S prisons? Do you watch Nat Geo’s “Lockdown”?

Actually, if you read what I said, I said ‘don’t tell the Aryans’ - in other words, while I’ve heard of instances (like the one you mentioned), the individuals are fooling themselves if they don’t think they’d be sent up the chimney with the rest of us.

Meanwhile, you found a tiny group of marginalized, alienated, teenagers from Soviet backgrounds pretending to be Nazis and I’m supposed to believe that there’s some underground Jewish Nazi movement?

As to ‘Nat Geo’s “Lockdown”’ - not on my (European) satellite menu but are you saying that the Aryan Brotherhood has Jewish members who they know to be Jewish? Or are you saying that there are Jews ‘hiding’ in the Aryan Brotherhood because you’ve got to be in one gang or another to survive - like the ‘blond, blue-eyed’ Jews who survived in Germany ‘undercover’ (they were known as ‘U-boats’)?

 

[cathopologist]

I wasn’t suggesting that they were gullible, I was suggesting that they made a calculated decision.

Fair enough.

Who are these ‘some like Moshe Aryeh Friedman’?

Under Jewish law, you’re a Jew if your mother was a Jew or if you convert to Judaism. If you convert to Christianity you’re no longer a Jew.

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is a Jew. In fact, he is supposedly a Rabbi.

Meanwhile, you found a tiny group of marginalized, alienated, teenagers from Soviet backgrounds pretending to be Nazis and I’m supposed to believe that there’s some underground Jewish Nazi movement?

They weren’t pretending. You don’t have to take my word for it. You can always do your own research if you doubt it, provided you have an open mind.

…are you saying that the Aryan Brotherhood has Jewish members who they know to be Jewish?

Not necessarily in the Aryan Brotherhood, but there are Soviet Jews who are neo-nazi’s, and they are not your wannabe Prince Harry’s.

 

[Kaninchen]

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is a Jew. In fact, he is supposedly a Rabbi.

Who are the ‘some like’?

They weren’t pretending. You don’t have to take my word for it. You can always do your own research if you doubt it, provided you have an open mind.

Who said anything about ‘pretending’?

Not necessarily in the Aryan Brotherhood, but there are Soviet Jews who are neo-nazi’s, and they are not your wannabe Prince Harry’s.

Indeed, the group you linked to but they are not in Neo-Nazi gangs in US prisons are they?

 

[RobHom]

My argument (in any thread about Pius that I’ve ever been in, which isn’t often) is with the defenses of Pius that are commonly put forward here - like the ‘800,000’.

Read here:

Please read it entirely.
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp

This one debunks false claims against Pius XII
newsblaze.com/story/20081011180931zzzz.nb/topstory.html

More:
catholicleague.org/pius/realstory.htm

catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

Did not the wonderful and famous “Golda Mier” eulogize Pius XII herself for his efforts in saving 865,000 Jews during the Holocaust? Seems if anyone would know the truth about Pius XII it would be she and others in Israel. History, true history does not condemn Pius XII.

 

[Kaninchen]

Read here:

Please read it entirely.
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp

What 800,000? Where?

You see, just because somebody (Jewish or not) said something at some time and this has passed from one Catholic apologetic website to another, doesn’t make it true. So, tell us, what 800,000? Where?

As I’ve said before, I think that some claims put forward in defense of Pius are a lot less defensible than Pius himself.

This one debunks false claims against Pius XII
newsblaze.com/story/20081011180931zzzz.nb/topstory.html

More:
catholicleague.org/pius/realstory.htm

catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

That’s all very interesting, I’m sure. Quite what it’s got to do with what I’ve been saying, I don’t know. Is saying that one doesn’t accept some of the claims about the wonderfulness of Pius the same as making ‘false claims’ about him?

]Did not the wonderful and famous “Golda Mier” eulogize Pius XII herself for his efforts in saving 865,000 Jews during the Holocaust? Seems if anyone would know the truth about Pius XII it would be she and others in Israel.

Evidence of Golda Meir and the 865,000?

History, true history does not condemn Pius XII.

Where have I condemned Pius XII? That’s not what I’ve been doing if you read what I’ve said.