Pope raps Christians who do not want change [CC]

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In his homily at a morning Mass on January 17, Pope Francis criticized “lazy Christians, Christians who do not have the will to go forward, Christians who don’t fight to make things change.”

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Change for the better, or change for the sake of change. For the latter is what has been happening in the western Church for over 50 years, and we can see the train wreck that has resulted.
Sometimes, when one finds themselves headed in the wrong direction, prudence suggests you should turn around.
 
I actually might agree with him on this. There are many in the church today who are very comfortable living their life, attending mass and donating periodically to a food drive or charity who would claim complete satisfaction and fulfillment of Christian duty.
 
What kind of change is His Holiness talking about? I read the story and found it to be somewhat lacking in specifics.

More evangelization?

Better catechesis?

A more vigorous proclamation of the Holy Gospel and the Good News?

If Pope Francis means THESE changes: 👍
 
ProdigalSun said:
Yes we need to fight to make change in the way CHristians are so lukewarm in their faith. We need to help them understand the importance of living a good holy and righteous lifestyle. We need to get people to see that sin is SIN!👍
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Do you think that this is the kind of change the Pope is advocating for- an increased awareness of sin?
 
ringil said:
Do you think that this is the kind of change the Pope is advocating for- an increased awareness of sin?
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I don’t know. But that drew me closer to God. In one of his books, he said that we should beg God for the grace of the awareness of our sin, in order to meet his mercy. This is pretty basic 101.
 
ChurchSoldier said:
I actually might agree with him on this. There are many in the church today who are very comfortable living their life, attending mass and donating periodically to a food drive or charity who would claim complete satisfaction and fulfillment of Christian duty.
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I agree. The thought of being a lukewarm Christian scares me. I think it’s something we should all be vigilant against.

The article is so short on info that I don’t know if this is what he is talking about but that was my thought too.
 
TCEL said:
I don’t know. But that drew me closer to God. In one of his books, he said that we should beg God for the grace of the awareness of our sin, in order to meet his mercy. This is pretty basic 101.
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I would say for me it was the result of drawing closer to God but maybe that’s just semantics. Once you “see the light” you tend to see your own darkness in stark contrast. Better to see it now than later though.
 
What the Pope is advocating for (in documents such as AL) is not really ‘change.’ It is the supplanting of doctrine with subjectivism - admittedly CDR is a mighty small step on this road, but the significance of the shift is seismic. It is not new - this is the oldest battle there is: God’s will vs. man’s. In terms of philosophy and religion, these ideas he is espousing have been bandied about for literally centuries in one form or another. However, due to the current state of education, very very few people can understand what I am saying here. In all fairness, in the best of times most people would not understand or care about this sort of thing. It is the responsibility of the Church to shepherd the sheep. Most of the clergy/bishops understand what is happening here (both those that oppose and support it), but you could probably actually find some who could not. This shift to ‘pastoral’ care over attention to doctrine falls under this umbrella as well. It is a shift away from the doctrine and teaching of the Church (now ‘rigid’ and ‘clerical’) towards subjectivity. A lot of pretty vicious straw man attacking going on too - in the name of mercy, of course! The charges are not accurate. The implementation of doctrine of the Church does not lack mercy. That charge alone should send a chill down the spine.

I think history will see this as the triumph of the weak men over the strong in the Church (assuming it triumphs which I am still not entirely convinced it will) - and I am not talking Paul’s or Christ’s weakness here either, I am talking the weakness of the world, of man. A state of intellectual, spiritual, moral exhaustion is the only vantage point that could see any of this as ‘new’ or ‘change’. The Church of the last, happy man. (and trust me he won’t go there too often - too many other things to do, to love)

Good news is the individual soul in Christ will not get swept away in this. Unless you choose to. We are free to reject it.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
What the Pope is advocating for (in documents such as AL) is not really ‘change.’ It is the supplanting of doctrine with subjectivism - admittedly CDR is a mighty small step on this road, but the significance of the shift is seismic. It is not new - this is the oldest battle there is: God’s will vs. man’s. In terms of philosophy and religion, these ideas he is espousing have been bandied about for literally centuries in one form or another. However, due to the current state of education, very very few people can understand what I am saying here. In all fairness, in the best of times most people would not understand or care about this sort of thing. It is the responsibility of the Church to shepherd the sheep. Most of the clergy/bishops understand what is happening here (both those that oppose and support it), but you could probably actually find some who could not. This shift to ‘pastoral’ care over attention to doctrine falls under this umbrella as well. It is a shift away from the doctrine and teaching of the Church (now ‘rigid’ and ‘clerical’) towards subjectivity. A lot of pretty vicious straw man attacking going on too - in the name of mercy, of course! The charges are not accurate. The implementation of doctrine of the Church does not lack mercy. That charge alone should send a chill down the spine.

I think history will see this as the triumph of the weak men over the strong in the Church (assuming it triumphs which I am still not entirely convinced it will) - and I am not talking Paul’s or Christ’s weakness here either, I am talking the weakness of the world, of man. A state of intellectual, spiritual, moral exhaustion is the only vantage point that could see any of this as ‘new’ or ‘change’. The Church of the last, happy man. (and trust me he won’t go there too often - too many other things to do, to love)

Good news is the individual soul in Christ will not get swept away in this. Unless you choose to. We are free to reject it.
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OR, the Pope could be right and you could be wrong, and history will look back at Francis as a Saint who saved the Church. My money is on Francis.
 
TMC said:
OR, the Pope could be right and you could be wrong, and history will look back at Francis as a Saint who saved the Church. My money is on Francis.
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Why, TMC, bless your heart, you are making my case for me. 😉
 
TMC said:
OR, the Pope could be right and you could be wrong, and history will look back at Francis as a Saint who saved the Church. My money is on Francis.
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Are you judging here???
 
More and More I am starting to understand those folks who are anti-organized religion.

I am getting tired of being told just how bad a christian
 
ringil said:
Do you think that this is the kind of change the Pope is advocating for- an increased awareness of sin?
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You hit on the major problem for me: It’s hard to know exactly what the Holy Father means by many of his statements.
 
ProdigalSun said:
Are you judging here???
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No, not at all. I am just saying that as between an anonymous internet poster’s opinion on the state of the Church and the Pope’s, I am generally going to go with the Pope. (I guess I am making the judgment that the Pope will be viewed favorably by history, but I don’t think that is what you meant.)
 
TMC said:
OR, the Pope could be right and you could be wrong, and history will look back at Francis as a Saint who saved the Church. My money is on Francis.
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It’s not up to any pope to save the Church: Christ will save the Church, will not surrender her to the Gates of Hell. Who or what he’ll save it from is yet to be seen…
 
philipl said:
More and More I am starting to understand those folks who are anti-organized religion.

I am getting tired of being told just how bad a christian
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I have been thinking about that too - perhaps the greatest victim here of all is ‘Organized Religion.’ There is suddenly quite a spotlight on her vulnerability, her warts, isn’t there. The problem though with just walking with Christ on your own is that I believe there is a true original Christian Church - the Church of the Apostles - meant to exist in the world, above the world, to save the world. I am on the side of the people fighting subjectivism, not embracing it. I want a Christian community based on truth, the Gospel. Aka the Church. As it was intended. If there is anything worth fighting for…my goodness.
 
philipl said:
More and More I am starting to understand those folks who are anti-organized religion.

I am getting tired of being told just how bad a christian
Click to expand...
The worst thing is not just being told how bad a christian, aren’t we all? It’s being told how bad a christian for when you are actually being a good christian as opposed to when you are actually being bad. As if the difficulties a modern faithful christian living in today’s world faces for attempting to live as a Christian aren’t enough. Many lose faith because they don’t see Christ’s intervention.

Ironically, the constant condemnation has been highlighted as the sign of the pharisee…confusing…🤷
 
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