Pope reacts to 'rigid' critics [CWN]

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Why is it so impossible for popes and bishops of old to be wrong, yet we are so quick to judge those of today?

With that thought I’m signing off this discussion. I’m tired of being beat up for defending our Holy Father!
 
Not only did you not do anything wrong but you did precisely what forum rules demand…to report those who violate forum rules by speaking disrespectfully of the Vicar of Christ upon earth.

The forum says
*Negative and rude comments toward CAF members, clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned.

Everyone, online and offline, deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully. However, some posters seem to feel that clergy and religious are fair game.*
I not only petition but I implore the forum moderator and the forum administrator to address forthwith the issue as it is manifesting itself.
Thank you kindly Father! 🙂

I’m signing off this discussion. This environment is too hostile. I look forward to seeing your posts on other threads!
 
Martin Luther was a key player in an event that fractured the Christian World. Perhaps he was more sinned against than sinning, but that doesn’t change his stature --and his perceived stature ESPECIALLY among non-Catholic Christians.
For that he will answer to God alone. What he did to the unity of the Church was terrible. However, he also played a major role in reforming the Catholic Church. The Council of Trent would not have happened without Martin Luther. The Reformation was a terrible wound, but it was a wound used by God to break off a lot of the Church’s secularism.

While I know the Pope could have used other examples, as one who speaks from the heart, I am guessing Luther was just fresh in his mind due to the recent collaboration with the Lutheran Church. I would not read too much into it.
 
"Cardinal-designate Joseph Tobin defended Pope Francis against the four cardinals who have asked for clarification…“Amoris Laetitia cannot simply be reduced to a question of ‘yes’ or ‘no’ in a specific pastoral situation.”’

First, Archbishop Tobin, soon will be made a Cardinal by Pope Francis. What is it he thinks his bishops and pastors will be dealing with if not individual specific pastoral situations about which they will be tasked with saying ‘yes’ or ‘no’?
The answer to this is quite simple. Amoris Laetitia is not a specific situation. It is a papal exhortation. A priest would be tasked to answering a question about a specific person, place and circumstance. Comparing the two is ridiculous. It is as silly as complaining that state laws does not say whether one is guilty or innocent, so how can a jury? The question itself is nonsensical.
 
A 500th year anniversary commemorating the reformation, is absolutely scandalous in the extreme for the Catholic Church to be involved in, the reformation is something the Church mourns.
I guess we all have our opinions. Some might even deem this level of rhetoric a scandal.
 
Does anyone know where to find a more thorough article on the “lengthy interview with the Italian Catholic daily ‘Avvenire’”?

A filial appeal was signed by some 800,000 Catholics a year or so ago requesting clarity on the Church’s unchangeable teachings on marriage and sacraments (especially marriage and reconciliation), 45 theologians signed an appeal and sent to all 218 Cardinals and Patriarchs (including Pope Francis) requesting clarification of apparent errors in Amoris Laetitia, and now, –perhaps motivated by the silence- 4 Cardinals have sent the Dubia Intervention in order to to “untie the knots in AL.” The purpose of these requests is simple: to bring unity to the Church polarized and divided by the lack of clarity.

Threads attempting to discuss the confusion have resulted in misunderstandings, mischaracterizations, suspension of members, and threads being locked from further discussion or resolution. How can this Forum claim to aim for charity if past Magisterial and papal teachings are deemed too divisive to discuss?

If Avvenire is indeed a lengthy interview of Pope Francis about Amoris Laetitia (as the linked article claims), it would perhaps help clear up some of the confusion and bad feelings expressed between fellow Catholics.

The quotes in the article attributed to Pope Francis are not at all helpful in de-polarizing these serious concerns causing division and separation of past Magisterial teaching and various interpretations of AL today.
It is interesting that certain others are simply asking for clarification (in particular with regard to specifics on moral theology) and doing so respectfully, and as you noted above, “to bring unity to the Church polarized and divided by the lack of clarity.” Yet the response has been anything but charitable and respectful. Those seeking clarification are called ‘witless worms’, excessively ‘rigid’ and guilty of ‘legalism’, and are ‘born with something missing.’ Really? Often times, this sort of response indicates that their own position is not able to be adequately defended. This is the epitome of argumentum ad hominem.
 
Why is it so impossible for popes and bishops of old to be wrong, yet we are so quick to judge those of today?
On the other hand, if what your saying or implying is that it’s possible for Popes and Bishops of old to have been wrong in certain regards, why then would it be impossible for those of today?
With that thought I’m signing off this discussion. I’m tired of being beat up for defending our Holy Father!
Me?

I also try to defend our Holy Father (As I have tried in other threads), but with stuff like this, it sure is difficult, if not impossible.

There is nothing to ‘commemorate’ about the fracturing (reformation) of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Not only did you not do anything wrong but you did precisely what forum rules demand…to report those who violate forum rules by speaking disrespectfully of the Vicar of Christ upon earth.

The forum says
*Negative and rude comments toward CAF members, clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned.

Everyone, online and offline, deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully. However, some posters seem to feel that clergy and religious are fair game.*
I not only petition but I implore the forum moderator and the forum administrator to address forthwith the issue as it is manifesting itself.
I don’t believe I spoke disrespectfully of our Holy Father, I was frustrated and replied to one of your comments with sarcasm and for that I apologies.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Let us be perfectly clear:
  1. The decision of a joint commemoration of the Reformation is that of both Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.
  2. This decision is implemented by the Holy See. It is to be shown complete and absolute deference.
  3. The bishops, dispersed throughout the world, and the conferences of bishops in their various geographical divisions have decreed what is to be done.
For laity to speak of the decisions of the hierarchy at its highest levels as scandalous is nothing short of intolerable and invites censure from ecclesiastical authority.

The commemoration has been implemented by the Pope and by the bishops of the world. Full stop.
Not full stop, not full stop at all. 😦

You are right, I am just a lay person with little knowledge and practically no authority to speak on such matters, but I know that it is wrong to commemorate the fracturing (reformation) of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don’t need to have authority or great knowledge to see that. 😦

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Yet the response has been anything but charitable and respectful. Those seeking clarification are called ‘witless worms’, excessively ‘rigid’ and guilty of ‘legalism’, and are ‘born with something missing.’ Really? Often times, this sort of response indicates that their own position is not able to be adequately defended. This is the epitome of argumentum ad hominem.
You know, you have a valid point, though some of the terms you used are not insults but general observations. Charity is always taught better by example than command. It is easier to react than to take the time to think like another, understanding with empathy the difference in another.
 
I confess, all these conversations and statements bring me great inner turmoil. I suppose I also fall into the “rigid” category in that I firmly accept and believe all Church teachings and I believe that the Roman Catholic Church and faith holds the fullness of revelation given for the sake of our souls and salvation. I believe not going to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation (without a very good reason) is a sin. I believe that marriage is a Sacred Union of one man and one woman and that divorce was never supposed to happen. I believe couples living together and fornicating are sinning. The list can and does go on–the point is, all of these things have been handed down to us, not from Pope Francis, or from any recent Popes, but from 2,000 years of the Church’s existence, operation and history.

To remain of a peaceful heart, I tend to steer away from theses hot topics. The very label, conservative Catholic, seems grossly unfair to me because isn’t the very nature of the faith the idea of conserving that which has been handed down? Isn’t it true that to be Catholic, accepting all that the Church teaches is simply part of the deal?

I am also a firm believer in what the Lord said (paraphrasing here), “let our yes be yes, and our no be no.” Clarity of heart and mind is crucial in matters of faith and morals. As for me and my house, we love the Lord, His Mother, and His Church.
 
Don Ruggero:
Let us be perfectly clear:
  1. The decision of a joint commemoration of the Reformation is that of both Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.
  2. This decision is implemented by the Holy See. It is to be shown complete and absolute deference.
  3. The bishops, dispersed throughout the world, and the conferences of bishops in their various geographical divisions have decreed what is to be done.
For laity to speak of the decisions of the hierarchy at its highest levels as scandalous is nothing short of intolerable and invites censure from ecclesiastical authority.

The commemoration has been implemented by the Pope and by the bishops of the world. Full stop.
Not full stop, not full stop at all. 😦

You are right, I am just a lay person with little knowledge and practically no authority to speak on such matters, but I know that it is wrong to commemorate the fracturing (reformation) of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don’t need to have authority or great knowledge to see that. 😦

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
To be fair, Josh, Father has a point here on this post. I think you are not using your language as particularly as you can be. There is nothing wrong, per se, with commemorating the reformation. But we should not be, as Catholic Christians (or even as Lutheran Christains, really) celebrating the reformation. I think that is more what you mean, right Josh? If that’s the case, then I totally agree with you; we should not be celebrating the Reformation which has led to fractures and divisions in the Body of Christ. Karl Keating here on CA said as much just a few weeks ago:
Many people—mostly Protestants, of course, but also not a few Catholics—are talking of “celebrating” the Protestant Reformation. I am not one of them, because there is nothing to celebrate, though there is much to commemorate. Working from the Latin, to commemorate (“with memory”) means to keep something in memory or not to lose memory of it.
We commemorate 9/11 because we want to keep in mind the wickedness of the terrorism and the heroism of so many victims, police, and firefighters—but we don’t celebrate what happened on that day. We gladly would give up the heroism if we could have been spared the terror.
catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/not-a-reformation-but-a-revolution

Now, I believe some may be taking the commemoration too far, and it begins to look a bit like celebrating, especially when we see lots of praise heaped on Martin Luther. But as has been mentioned in many theological reports, he is a complex figure. I respect, for isntance, his reverence toward the Eucharist. I remember the story of how when he was celebrating Mass once towards the end of his life, he couldn’t stop his hands from shaking after the consecration and spilled some of the Precious Blood on the floor of the altar. The old man got on his hands and knees and lapped up the Precious Blood with his tongue like a dog. But on the other hand, he did many things that give us bad examples of what a Christian witness should do, such as abandoning his vows of celibacy he made at his priestly ordination by marrying Katharina von Bora.

So I totally understand your sentiments, Josh, but I think you just have to be a bit more precise with your language. Celebrating and commemorating are two different things.
 
Not full stop, not full stop at all. 😦

You are right, I am just a lay person with little knowledge and practically no authority to speak on such matters, but I know that it is wrong to commemorate the fracturing (reformation) of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don’t need to have authority or great knowledge to see that. 😦

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
Josh, Father said full stop.
 
I guess we all have our opinions. Some might even deem this level of rhetoric a scandal.
If it were ONLY opinion and ad hominem attacks! Unfortunately, it is so much more! To understand WHY some posters feel compelled to speak more strongly against and about some of the reported quotes of Our Holy Father and his spokesmen, please read what Cardinal Burke has said. m.ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-burke-on-amoris-laetitia-dubia-tremendous-division-warrants-action#.WCycbel1Ixo
The initiative is aimed at one thing only, namely the good of the Church, which, right now, is suffering from a tremendous confusion on at least these five points… (we) request a clarification…in order to put an end to this spread of confusion that is actually leading people into error.
He and the other 3 cardinals are attempting to UNIFY the Church and PREVENT heresy and or/schism! As I stated in earlier post, numerous attempts to seek clarification on doctrines of the Church have been met with silence regarding the actual facts. Meanwhile, we are stuck with discussing the red herring of Martin Luther :eek: His words of blasphemy against the sacrifice of the Mass and sacrament of marriage seem to conveniently be forgotten.
 
Also, while I think we should defer to the Pope in simply commemorating (not celebrating) the Reformation this year and next by praying for unity and understanding, I don’t see or understand why Catholics have to conform themselves to what the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity declared on Luther and Lutherans in 1983 or in this recent document. I don’t see where that commission, comprised of both Lutherans and Catholics, is analogous to the Holy See, but I am open to correction. Dans0622 had a good point on an earlier thread:

“While there is obviously a “new” tenor to the way the Church interacts with non-Catholics, it seems to me that the use of words/phrases such as “proclaimed by the Holy See”, “judgment of Rome”, “conferral of those titles” overstates things. That 1983 document is not quite that authoritative.”

That 1983 document is HERE. It simply says that “[Luther] is beginning to be honored in common as a witness to the gospel, a teacher in the faith and a herald of spiritual renewal.” I don’t see where the Pope (or the Holy See) was saying Luther was a witness to the Gospel. A few theologians are saying he is beginning to be honored as such. This appears to be an opinion given by at least a few of the 22 members who signed the 1983 document. I do not see where we as Catholics must believe with Catholic and divine faith that Luther is a “witness to the Gospel”. That is something that can be debated and discussed among Christians of good faith.

Just as much is said in the “Conflict to Communion” report I linked previously, that Luther is a witness to the Gospel. And as I mentioned before, perhaps he is a witness, but in an imperfect way. St. John Fisher, the Martyrs of Gorkum, and many others have been, objectively according to the Church, much better witnesses to the Gospel than Martin Luther. Bishop Karlheinz Diez tells us in his forward to that same report that “We invite all Christians to study the report of our Commission both open-mindedly and critically, and to come with us along the way to a deeper communion of all Christians.”

I have done so open-mindedly by reading and agreeing with various parts of the commission, but as the good bishop said, I and others can be a bit critical of the commission’s report at certain points. Nothing wrong with that, such as how there isn’t any good exposition on idulgences in the document, and they keep being referred to as something that is no longer relevant, i.e. that “indulgences played an important role in the piety of the time.” (par. 41) The report fails to mention that indulgences still play a big part in Catholic piety today, and are something important the faithful should embrace. I also am a bit critical of how Pope Leo X’s writings (particularly Exsurge Domine) are somewhat dismissed in paragraph 50. Those are just some examples of how I am a bit critical of this particular commission’s writings, but still defer to what recent Popes have been trying to do: bring attention to the sad divisions that are before us while praying that we may all be reconciled. The only pitfall in this is that certain theologians may concede too much, and that should be avoided.

So I don’t fear that Pope Francis will “Protestantize” the faith, as he mentions in his interview, but I do hope and pray that some Catholic theologians don’t go too far into turning their commemoration into something that might promote a strain of universalism and put the reformers in a not so accurate light. Again, we must all keep in mind Luther is a complicated and complex figure.
 
Not only did you not do anything wrong but you did precisely what forum rules demand…to report those who violate forum rules by speaking disrespectfully of the Vicar of Christ upon earth.

The forum says
*Negative and rude comments toward CAF members, clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned.

Everyone, online and offline, deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully. However, some posters seem to feel that clergy and religious are fair game.*
I not only petition but I implore the forum moderator and the forum administrator to address forthwith the issue as it is manifesting itself.
Is it uncharitable, disrespectful, or disobedient (even for laypersons) to request clarification on confusing elements in AL? Is it wrong to be offended at the disregard for and maybe even rejection of doctrinal teachings of past popes? Should not respect and adherence to prior Magisterial teaching on the exact same doctrine be deemed as necessary as obeying our present Holy Father? After all, “catholic” means universal- for all people in every place and in every time.
All of this speculation about what is meant by AL and why one point of view is superior to another could be resolved by Our Hoy Father addressing the concerns.

Cardinal Burke excerpts:
Motivated by a pastoral concern for the faithful, four cardinals have sent a letter to the Holy Father under the form of dubia, hoping to receive clarity, given that doubt and uncertainty are always highly detrimental to pastoral care.
Ours is, therefore, an act of justice and charity.
Of justice: With our initiative, we profess that the Petrine ministry is the ministry of unity, and that to Peter, to the Pope, belongs the service of confirming in the faith.
Of charity: We want to help the Pope to prevent divisions and conflicts in the Church, asking him to dispel all ambiguity.
The Pope is a great servant of the truths of the faith, as they’ve been handed down in an unbroken line from the time of the apostles.
What is binding is the Tradition. Ecclesial authority exists only in service of Tradition.
All quotes taken from ncregister
 
You may have misunderstood me. Sorry, it’s probably my fault.

I’m not in anyway against a pastor helping someone who asks for help. I’m saying only that neither I nor thousands of laymen and clergy have a clue about what Pope Francis means in Chapter Eight of AL. The Pope has turned down many requests by media, bishops and Cardinals for clarity. Some prelates say this and some say that. There is as a result unthinkable division in the Church.

So, without clarity, what is a poor bishop or pastor to tell the sheep who come to him for help in avoiding sacrilegious reception of Communion? I would not like to be in the shoes of such pastor.

This is not bean bags we are playing: “Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29).
There are wider-reaching and thus potentially even more disastrous outcomes to the lack of clarification. Watch EWTN World Over Live, ewtn.com/tv/live/worldover.asp (see episode 2016/11/17)

The Dubia isn’t limited to seeking an answer as to whether or not a small number of divorced/remarried/non-annulled/sexual active persons can partake in the Eucharist or confession without repentance. It also asks questions pertaining to ALL Catholics and especially to future generations: 1) are there still absolute moral norms that prohibit intrinsically evil acts and are binding without exceptions? 2) are circumstances able to make what are moral evils, no longer “objective moral evils” ? 3) does conscience have the right to decide on the morality of an act, on its own, over and above what unchangeable tradition and magisterial Church teaching have been?
 
If it were ONLY opinion and ad hominem attacks! Unfortunately, it is so much more! To understand WHY some posters feel compelled to speak more strongly against and about some of the reported quotes of Our Holy Father and his spokesmen, please read what Cardinal Burke has said. m.ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-burke-on-amoris-laetitia-dubia-tremendous-division-warrants-action#.WCycbel1Ixo
The interview asked, “What happens if the Holy Father does not respond to your act of justice and charity”
Does this not make you question just a little be the validity of the journalistic integrity?
He and the other 3 cardinals are attempting to UNIFY the Church and PREVENT heresy and or/schism!
That is likely their goal. But realize that AB Lefbvre had a similar goal. In this case, there is no heresy. There is an method of correct even the Pope in this case, but the fact that Amoris Laetitia is the product of two synods that declined to define as doctrine what Cardinal Burke is defending, and laid the ground for what the Pope is doing. A minority, much less a handful, cannot challenge the Pope successfully regardless of how lofty their intention. They simply must consider the possibility they could be wrong.
 
The Dubia isn’t limited to seeking an answer as to whether or not a small number of divorced/remarried/non-annulled/sexual active persons can partake in the Eucharist or confession without repentance.
This is not one of the questions asked. Nothing in Amoris Laetitia states this.
 
This post is reported not only to the forum moderator; I am also sending it to the forum administrator for review and adjudication.

This is nothing short of a situation of abuse and I find it absolutely intolerable.
Yes, my friend–we are sadly aware that you find a lot of posts on a lot of threads with which you personally disagree “intolerable” or worse. But your disagreement with knowledgeable, orthodox posters and the public statements of high-ranking prelates and theologians around the world do not thereby invalidate what they say.

No one would object to, and probably would agree with, your calling out posts that truly are beyond the pale and violate Forum rules.
 
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