Pope reacts to 'rigid' critics [CWN]

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But I mean, taking the case of someone who gets married in the Church, then is civilly divorced, with no determination from the Church that the marriage was never valid. And then they get civilly remarried. Do you agree that they may not receive Communion until they repent and sacramentally confess violating the sign of the Covenant, and are committed to living in complete continence?
This is the law of the Church. AL is not changing this.

What the document is saying is that Pastors of souls are just that, Pastors of souls and that they must act in pastoral ways to help the couple come to this understanding and help them to do something about it.

It is not up to well-meaning lay people to pass judgment on any situation, as they will never have all the facts. These guidelines are for the pastoral people on the “front lines”, so to speak, who know the situation, the couple, and their history.

For the life of me, I don’t understand what the confusion is?! 🤷
 
This is the law of the Church. AL is not changing this.

What the document is saying is that Pastors of souls are just that, Pastors of souls and that they must act in pastoral ways to help the couple come to this understanding and help them to do something about it.

It is not up to well-meaning lay people to pass judgment on any situation, as they will never have all the facts. These guidelines are for the pastoral people on the “front lines”, so to speak, who know the situation, the couple, and their history.

For the life of me, I don’t understand what the confusion is?! 🤷
It would seem obvious that pastors should sensitively help couples come to accept the law of the Church and live it out.

What are the new pastoral guidelines proposed by Amoris Laetitia?

Does Amoris Laetitia clearly affirm that a civilly remarried person who hasn’t confessed their sin and committed to living in complete continence, cannot receive Communion?
 
It would seem obvious that pastors should sensitively help couples come to accept the law of the Church and live it out.

What are the new pastoral guidelines proposed by Amoris Laetitia?

Does Amoris Laetitia clearly affirm that a civilly remarried person who hasn’t confessed their sin and committed to living in complete continence, cannot receive Communion?
You would think that pastors should be “pastorally sensitive” but you and I both know that is not/has not always been the case.

The whole document is about pastoral guidelines. That’s what the whole Synod was about. 🤷

The document was written for Bishops & Priests, not lay people. They know the rules of the Church, there is no reason for this document to restate them.

So, again, where is the confusion?

Or is it just that this particular document is not “black & white” enough for some people.
The Holy Father did call for his Bishops & Priests to know their sheep, and to get right in there with them, getting dirty if needed.
Is this the problem? Some of the “Princes” don’t want to get their hands dirty? 🤷:rolleyes:
 
You would think that pastors should be “pastorally sensitive” but you and I both know that is not/has not always been the case.

The whole document is about pastoral guidelines. That’s what the whole Synod was about. 🤷

The document was written for Bishops & Priests, not lay people. They know the rules of the Church, there is no reason for this document to restate them.

So, again, where is the confusion?

Or is it just that this particular document is not “black & white” enough for some people.
The Holy Father did call for his Bishops & Priests to know their sheep, and to get right in there with them, getting dirty if needed.
Is this the problem? Some of the “Princes” don’t want to get their hands dirty? 🤷:rolleyes:
You may want to rethink that last sentence.
 
You would think that pastors should be “pastorally sensitive” but you and I both know that is not/has not always been the case.

The whole document is about pastoral guidelines. That’s what the whole Synod was about. 🤷
I think that pastors these days tend to be more lax than insensitive. So if the Pope is not affirming the Church’s law clearly, that may be what is causing so much confusion.

I have trouble reading for a number of reasons, so I went to a site to try to understand something of the document, since I don’t know what these new pastoral guidelines are, and your post did not explain any of them.

It purportedly quotes the document as saying:

“‘Because of forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end.’ (Footnote directly after this statement reads – In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments.”
focusoncampus.org/content/a-summary-of-amoris-laetitia-the-joy-of-love

So is the Pope saying that it is possible for some civilly remarried people to receive Communion without be penitent for their adultery, and without being committed to living in complete continence?

If not, it seems like maybe the Vicar of Christ could clear this up by a clear statement as such.

If yes, how can that be reconciled with CCC 1650 and the Church’s Tradition?
 
So is the Pope saying that it is possible for some civilly remarried people to receive Communion without be penitent for their adultery, and without being committed to living in complete continence?
Ok, I think I am starting to understand the confusion, and it has to do with this statement.

Being committed to something and doing it perfectly for the rest of your life are 2 totally different things.

Every single time I go to confession, when I leave, I have made a commitment to sin no more. But, then usually within about a month, there I am, right back at the confessional, and usually, for the same reason I was there the month before. 😊

WE don’t ask anyone else to make a perfect guarantee of living a totally moral, sin free life, why would we with people who are obviously trying? 🤷
 
Ok, I think I am starting to understand the confusion, and it has to do with this statement.

Being committed to something and doing it perfectly for the rest of your life are 2 totally different things.

Every single time I go to confession, when I leave, I have made a commitment to sin no more. But, then usually within about a month, there I am, right back at the confessional, and usually, for the same reason I was there the month before. 😊

WE don’t ask anyone else to make a perfect guarantee of living a totally moral, sin free life, why would we with people who are obviously trying? 🤷
If a civilly remarried person has reconciled with Christ by confessing their adultery with a commitment to be completely continent, they might–as you say–fall again. If they are penitent, and–if the incontinence was serious (such as intercourse)–they have confessed, I would think they could continue to receive. As you seem to suggest, the issue is whether they are really trying. If they aren’t, then I would think it’s the sin of sacrilege, right?

But does Amoris Laetitia make it clear that one must be truly penitent for the adultery, confess their sin, and be committed to complete continence before they receive Communion?
 
Nope, just my perception of what is going on. No rethinking necessary.
In charity, perhaps, you might wish to reword your perception with a little less ad hominem. The “quotes” around Princes (a courtesy title that you didn’t have to use, the assumption that those who are *prelates of the Church *are somehow not willing to serve the people because the work will somehow 'soil them". . .could be kind of offensive. Which of the princes you are implying this of? You must have some idea if you are making the accusation. Perhaps Cardinal Burke?

Look, we all have strong feelings and I’m sure a desire to think the best of people, at heart, but sometimes we let those feelings steer us just a little too far away from charity. Heaven knows I’ve been guilty of it. But since I’m sure that we want to be fair to ALL the leaders in the Church, not just the ones we happen to like because they seem to support what we think is right, I’ll again suggest --suggest, merely–that you do slightly reword that last sentence. . .
 
In charity, perhaps, you might wish to reword your perception with a little less ad hominem. The “quotes” around Princes (a courtesy title that you didn’t have to use, the assumption that those who are *prelates of the Church *are somehow not willing to serve the people because the work will somehow 'soil them". . .could be kind of offensive. Which of the princes you are implying this of? You must have some idea if you are making the accusation. Perhaps Cardinal Burke?

Look, we all have strong feelings and I’m sure a desire to think the best of people, at heart, but sometimes we let those feelings steer us just a little too far away from charity. Heaven knows I’ve been guilty of it. But since I’m sure that we want to be fair to ALL the leaders in the Church, not just the ones we happen to like because they seem to support what we think is right, I’ll again suggest --suggest, merely–that you do slightly reword that last sentence. . .
I understand what you are saying and thank you for your advice, but it is now too late to change, and I really don’t feel that it was/is necessary.
If it is OK for others, even clergy, to make their feelings known, why can’t I?

If the moderators feel I have crossed a line, I am sure they will let me know.
 
Confession,Reconciliation. Go to our priests.

St John Vianney,Cura de Ars,please pray for us all and thank you in advance!
 
But does Amoris Laetitia make it clear that one must be truly penitent for the adultery, confess their sin, and be committed to complete continence before they receive Communion?
It does not have too! That is already the law of the Church.

Why are people trying to complicate this?! :eek:🤷
 
It does not have too! That is already the law of the Church.

Why are people trying to complicate this?! :eek:🤷
Well, because according to what has been said by various bishops in Argentina and elsewhere, if an individual bishop or priest decides that in his opinion the situation is not sinful, then those in an ‘irregular situation’ can be given the sacraments in those cases.

You mentioned earlier the sacrament of Penance. And I got the feeling–correct me if I’m wrong–that you are proposing that if a divorced and later remarried without decree of nullity Catholic partner or couple decide that they will ‘try’ to be continent so that they can receive (which is the Church teaching) that they should be allowed to receive reconciliation and then receive the Eucharist, even if there is a reasonable chance that they will fail, because “other people who commit grave sins aren’t expected to 'never sin again”, so why shouldn’t these people have a chance?

But the person who is living in sin but not civilly married, is always in a default ‘sinless’ state once the sin of fornication is confessed. The person who is civilly remarried after divorce without a decree of nullity has committed THAT sin and unless he or she divorces that partner and lives chastely, they are still in a mortal sin constantly, plus the ‘added mortal sin’ of any sexual acts in that sinful marriage. Until or unless the sin of the irregular marriage is dealt with, there is no chance to forgive any of the ‘byproducts’ (the actual sexual relations/fornication/adultery).

And it seems as though some of the bishops are trying to advocate that, due to some situation, such as that the earlier marriage was forced, or that the earlier partner was a cheater, a drunkard, or whatever, that EVEN IF the first marriage is not found to be invalid (and that depends on the situation at the time of the VOWS, not what happens after), the person might still in his or her ‘conscience’ feel that the first marriage was not valid, and that the second one is, and so it is the situation of being irregularly MARRIED that is being ‘forgiven’ by the individual priest, not the sexual sins. IOW, the person is not supposed to 'stop having sexual sin and have the irregular marriage dealt with", the person is going to be told that the irregular marriage is forgiven, and to go ahead without having to bother with a decree of nullity.

And that is NOT Catholic teaching. And it isn’t pastoral. It’s trying to push ‘the internal forum’ as a substitute for determining the validity of a marriage. Apparently it’s too difficult for people to get decrees, or they pursue and oops, the first marriage WAS valid. . .but we’d like more people in the pews and if it’s just a matter of being a little more sensitive and realizing that people’s consciences are a far better guide than some long drawn out legal process that costs too much anyway, isn’t it better to ‘meet people where they are’ and give them ‘a help for when they’re sick’ instead of demanding that they meet some 'impossible standard of behavior for so many?"

And THAT is what, as I understand, the four cardinals and many others, including Joe and Jane Plain Old Catholic, want to be sure they understand. IS this document going to allow people to bypass Church teaching, even if it’s not what will happen in ‘most’ cases, or even if it’s simply a logical ‘step’ based on the pastoral prudential judgment of some person, or is it what Cardinal Burke or Archbishop Chaput and others say, that it will not cause divorced and remarried people to be able to receive but simply require that pastors be more ‘accompanying’ of people in that situation? It seems to me to be something that really is a simple yes or no. . . Either people can do X, or they can’t.
 
Well, because according to what has been said by various bishops in Argentina and elsewhere, if an individual bishop or priest decides that in his opinion the situation is not sinful, then those in an ‘irregular situation’ can be given the sacraments in those cases.

You mentioned earlier the sacrament of Penance. And I got the feeling–correct me if I’m wrong–that you are proposing that if a divorced and later remarried without decree of nullity Catholic partner or couple decide that they will ‘try’ to be continent so that they can receive (which is the Church teaching) that they should be allowed to receive reconciliation and then receive the Eucharist, even if there is a reasonable chance that they will fail, because “other people who commit grave sins aren’t expected to 'never sin again”, so why shouldn’t these people have a chance?

But the person who is living in sin but not civilly married, is always in a default ‘sinless’ state once the sin of fornication is confessed. The person who is civilly remarried after divorce without a decree of nullity has committed THAT sin and unless he or she divorces that partner and lives chastely, they are still in a mortal sin constantly, plus the ‘added mortal sin’ of any sexual acts in that sinful marriage. Until or unless the sin of the irregular marriage is dealt with, there is no chance to forgive any of the ‘byproducts’ (the actual sexual relations/fornication/adultery).
I didn’t know that. So as I’m hearing you, a civilly remarried person must file for divorce, and stop living with their new partner before their sin of irregular marriage–and their sins of adulterous sex in the context of this new “marriage”–could be forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance?
 
But I mean, taking the case of someone who gets married in the Church, then is civilly divorced, with no determination from the Church that the marriage was never valid. And then they get civilly remarried. Do you agree that they may not receive Communion until they repent and sacramentally confess violating the sign of the Covenant, and are committed to living in complete continence?
My opinion is irrelevant. Let me just say it is not a doctrinal contradiction. Therefore, I will say I do not believe it to be an absolute, every time necessity. It might be the the current marriage is the valid one, if we remember that an annulment does not annul a marriage, but is only a recognition of a marriage that was not valid, as determined by the tribunal.

But don’t listen to me. I admit that in twenty years of studying the issue, I have never had all my reservations answered on this topic, its unique treatment in canon law. Maybe this is why I understand Amoris Laetitia more easily. I think we should be cautious about giving each other advice on this. I am not a trained Catholic pastor, and even then, some of these issues are a process of exploration between penitent and priest.
 
My opinion is irrelevant. Let me just say it is not a doctrinal contradiction. Therefore, I will say I do not believe it to be an absolute, every time necessity. It might be the the current marriage is the valid one, if we remember that an annulment does not annul a marriage, but is only a recognition of a marriage that was not valid, as determined by the tribunal.

But don’t listen to me. I admit that in twenty years of studying the issue, I have never had all my reservations answered on this topic, its unique treatment in canon law. Maybe this is why I understand Amoris Laetitia more easily.
I think Catholics should agree with CCC 1650 and the Church’s constant teaching. I don’t think we should oppose the Church’s authority in either faith or morals. If we don’t understand something, that’s okay, because God gives us faith to assent to everything taught by God through the Church.
 
I didn’t know that. So as I’m hearing you, a civilly remarried person must file for divorce, and stop living with their new partner before their sin of irregular marriage–and their sins of adulterous sex in the context of this new “marriage”–could be forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance?
I’m probably not the clearest person as I age–and in the throes of a cold–but I’m speaking of a case where a civilly divorced and remarried person/couple, without a decree of nullity, and continuing to engage in sexual relations.

There are cases where a couple in an irregular marriage (above) abstain from relations, 'living as brother and sister". By Catholic teaching, those people MAY receive because even though there is the sin of having invalidly ‘married’, if there is no real marriage according to the Church AND the couple are not living as a married couple, it’s like having opposite sex roommates. If the couple is seen as a ‘legal married couple’ and don’t say anything about their sexual–or not–relations, there is also no ‘scandal’ as there would be if two people of the opposite sex, not married, lived with each other (even if they were chaste).

The irregularity of an invalid marriage is thus to an extent ‘regularized’ if the couple is not engaging in sexual relations. Since the ‘first marriage’ is held to be valid by the Church, the ideal would be for the original partners to remarry each other and attempt to live out a valid marriage. But sometimes that cannot happen. If there are children in the second marriage, they are as ‘entitled’ to having a mother and father present as any other children. And since they are usually younger, they would need the parents’ presence perhaps a bit more, for a time, than older children, although again this is not always the case.

The Church has always provided pastoral care, but the fact remains, that especially with the advent of the Internet, even in ‘far off places’, people CAN be aware of Church teaching with the same kind of normal effort that they can be aware of the laws regarding driving, voting, how to balance a checkbook. Of course, some people will ignore those laws, not necessarily with evil intent. . . they drive ‘mostly’ by the rules, but ignore the stop sign if they’re in a hurry. They balance a checkbook, except when they have ‘more important things to do’.

Now as a point of information, back in the Stone Age, my mother, Catholic, married a twice divorced Protestant man. She loved him, he loved her, she was young, he didn’t see any problem (even in the early 1950s) with anything, all was going to work out. Yep. Then they started having children. And we were raised Catholic. With my mother accompanying us to every Mass, making sure we attended Catholic school, etc. And never once receiving communion until after my father died. My mother wasn’t stupid. She was very devout. She was raised pre Vatican 2. Her father had attended the seminary in his youth but found his vocation called him to marriage. (BTW, they never treated her any differently and we were as welcome in the family as the other cousins born in valid marriages). She knew what was what. Many times she regretted not the marriage itself, but the situation and the fact that she didn’t push for a decree of nullity (which would, even in the old days, almost certainly have been granted, but she accepted that wrong was wrong, even with all the good she had from it (my dad’s love, her wonderful kids, etc). If she had been told that since it was HER first marriage, and my dad’s marriages nearly certainly invalid, she could receive if her conscience was clear, she’d have reported the priest who said so to the bishop, if a bishop told her, she’d have reported to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. She didn’t think that she deserved to declare herself ‘in union’ with the Catholic Church when she was deliberately disobeying one of its teachings, and she would neither want the teaching changed to accommodate her, nor to be ‘winked at’ and allowed to receive communion under ‘false pretences’.
 
I think Catholics should agree with CCC 1650 and the Church’s constant teaching. I don’t think we should oppose the Church’s authority in either faith or morals.
We should not even oppose the Church’s disciplinary rules. However, if the Pope does allow for a change in the latter, that too should not be opposed, at least by us laymen, especially when the option is always available for one to not receive communion, if one chooses. No where does it say one must receive communion against one’s conscience.

There have already been some bishop conferences that are close to putting Amoris Laetitia into practice in varying forms. Discipline can change. The Pope is under no obligation to put out a new catechism to make a change. Besides, 1650 is still the norm, even in disciplinary matters.

I have talked to my own priest about this. He said that he has already been approached, yet those that have done so simply aren’t in a situation that can be resolved outside of continence, or separation.
 
Tantum ergo, thanks for that. Here is my take on the issue.

St. John Paul II’s Familiaris Consortio teaches that, if they commit to abstain from marital relations, divorced/remarried Catholics may receive Communion.

A major reason for the confusion and division regarding Chapter Eight of AL is that, in this very long and sometimes beautiful examination and confirmation of every aspect of marriage, there is neither examination nor confirmation of the aforesaid abstinence requirement .

In fact, in AL, abstinence is just briefly mentioned and only in a footnote with the implication that it may not always be a requirement in a penitential path, viz:

329 "In such situations, many people, knowing and accepting the possibility of living ‘as brothers and sisters’ which the Church offers them, point out that if certain expressions of intimacy are lacking, ‘it often happens that faithfulness is endangered and the good of the children suffers’.

Confusion exists in the first place because AL never discussed the major question of the parent Synod–can divorced/remarried Catholics licitly receive Communion. There is only another footnote (351) wherein it is said that the pastoral support offered to divorced/remarried Catholics “can include the help of the sacraments.” But, again, if that includes Communion, is it with or without the commitment to abstinence?

Some prelates say yes and some say no. Hence the confusion.

Would you agree?
 
I’m probably not the clearest person as I age–and in the throes of a cold–but I’m speaking of a case where a civilly divorced and remarried person/couple, without a decree of nullity, and continuing to engage in sexual relations.

There are cases where a couple in an irregular marriage (above) abstain from relations, 'living as brother and sister". By Catholic teaching, those people MAY receive because even though there is the sin of having invalidly ‘married’, if there is no real marriage according to the Church AND the couple are not living as a married couple, it’s like having opposite sex roommates. If the couple is seen as a ‘legal married couple’ and don’t say anything about their sexual–or not–relations, there is also no ‘scandal’ as there would be if two people of the opposite sex, not married, lived with each other (even if they were chaste).
Thank you. Will pray for your cold. That’s what I thought: that one could live in complete continence in the irregular marriage, and–if one has sincerely repented and confessed the sin of contracting a second marriage, and any sexual activity within that context–then one can receive Communion.

What you say about your mom is interesting. That’s exactly what I was told by a friend. That people used to stick up for the Church’s authority, and submit to it, even when they were doing something contrary to Church teaching.
 
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