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patricius79
Guest
Is it being disrespectful to affirm our obedience to the Pope and to Church doctrine, while trying to understand what he is saying?
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Kash00315
Guest
Sadly this situation is going to continue growing it seems this is apparently a recently publish letter by the head of the Greek Bishops to the four Cardinals who sent the Pope the dubia
Dearest brothers in the episcopate,
My faith in our God tells me that He cannot fail to love you. With the sincerity that comes from my heart I call you ‘dearest brothers.’
The letter you have sent to the Congregation to the Doctrine of the Faith and that was published last Monday on the site of L’Espresso has even made it to Greece.
Before publishing the document and, still more, before you drew it up, you ought to have presented yourself to the Holy Father Francis and requested that he remove you as members of the College of Cardinals.
Further, you should not have made use of the title of “Cardinal” to give prestige to what you have written, and this on account of coherence with your conscience and to alleviate the scandal you have given by writing privately.
You write that you are “deeply concerned about the true good of souls” and, indirectly, you accuse the Holy Father Francis “promoting some form of politics in the Church”. You ask that “that no one will judge us, unjustly.” He who would say the opposite of what you explicitly write would be judging you unjustly. The words you use have their meaning. The fact that you boast of the title of Cardinals does not change the meaning of the gravely offensive words for the Bishop of Rome.
If you are “deeply concerned about the true good of souls” and moved by “an impassioned concern for the good of the faithful”, I, dearest brothers, am “deeply moved by the true good of your souls”, for your double most grave sin:
the sin of heresy (and of apostasy? This, in fact, is the way schisms begin in the Church). From your document, it appears clearly that, in practice you do not believe in the supreme magisterial authority of the Pope, strengthened by two Synods of Bishops coming from the whole world. It seems that the Holy Spirit inspires only you and not the Vicar of Christ and not even the Bishops gathered in Synod.
and also the more grave sin of scandal, given publicly to the Christian people throughout the whole world. Concerning this Jesus has said, “Woe to the man by whom scandal comes” (Mt 18:7). “It would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea” (Mt 18:6).
Impelled by the charity of Christ, I pray for you. I ask the Lord to enlighten you to accept with simplicity of heart the magisterial teaching of the Holy Father Francis.
I fear that your mental categories will find sophisticated arguments to justify your work, so as not even to consider it a sin to be subjected to the Sacrament of Penance, and that you continue to celebrate every day the Holy Mass and to receive sacrilegiously the Sacrament of the Eucharist, while you are scandalized if, in specific cases, a divorced and remarried person receives the Eucharist, and you dare to accuse the Holy Father Francis of heresy.
You know that I participated in the two Synods of the Bishops on the family and I heard your interventions. I also heard the comments that one of you made, during the break, about an affirmation contained in my intervention in the synod hall, when I said, “To sin is not easy.” This brother (one of you four), speaking with his interlocutors, modified my affirmations and put in my mouth words that I didn’t say. Further, you gave my declaration an interpretation that could not be gathered in any way from what I had affirmed.
Dearest brothers, may the Lord enlighten you to recognize as soon as possible your sin and to repair the scandal you have given.
With the charity of Christ, I greet you fraternally.
President of the Episcopal Conference of Greece
Dearest brothers in the episcopate,
My faith in our God tells me that He cannot fail to love you. With the sincerity that comes from my heart I call you ‘dearest brothers.’
The letter you have sent to the Congregation to the Doctrine of the Faith and that was published last Monday on the site of L’Espresso has even made it to Greece.
Before publishing the document and, still more, before you drew it up, you ought to have presented yourself to the Holy Father Francis and requested that he remove you as members of the College of Cardinals.
Further, you should not have made use of the title of “Cardinal” to give prestige to what you have written, and this on account of coherence with your conscience and to alleviate the scandal you have given by writing privately.
You write that you are “deeply concerned about the true good of souls” and, indirectly, you accuse the Holy Father Francis “promoting some form of politics in the Church”. You ask that “that no one will judge us, unjustly.” He who would say the opposite of what you explicitly write would be judging you unjustly. The words you use have their meaning. The fact that you boast of the title of Cardinals does not change the meaning of the gravely offensive words for the Bishop of Rome.
If you are “deeply concerned about the true good of souls” and moved by “an impassioned concern for the good of the faithful”, I, dearest brothers, am “deeply moved by the true good of your souls”, for your double most grave sin:
the sin of heresy (and of apostasy? This, in fact, is the way schisms begin in the Church). From your document, it appears clearly that, in practice you do not believe in the supreme magisterial authority of the Pope, strengthened by two Synods of Bishops coming from the whole world. It seems that the Holy Spirit inspires only you and not the Vicar of Christ and not even the Bishops gathered in Synod.
and also the more grave sin of scandal, given publicly to the Christian people throughout the whole world. Concerning this Jesus has said, “Woe to the man by whom scandal comes” (Mt 18:7). “It would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea” (Mt 18:6).
Impelled by the charity of Christ, I pray for you. I ask the Lord to enlighten you to accept with simplicity of heart the magisterial teaching of the Holy Father Francis.
I fear that your mental categories will find sophisticated arguments to justify your work, so as not even to consider it a sin to be subjected to the Sacrament of Penance, and that you continue to celebrate every day the Holy Mass and to receive sacrilegiously the Sacrament of the Eucharist, while you are scandalized if, in specific cases, a divorced and remarried person receives the Eucharist, and you dare to accuse the Holy Father Francis of heresy.
You know that I participated in the two Synods of the Bishops on the family and I heard your interventions. I also heard the comments that one of you made, during the break, about an affirmation contained in my intervention in the synod hall, when I said, “To sin is not easy.” This brother (one of you four), speaking with his interlocutors, modified my affirmations and put in my mouth words that I didn’t say. Further, you gave my declaration an interpretation that could not be gathered in any way from what I had affirmed.
Dearest brothers, may the Lord enlighten you to recognize as soon as possible your sin and to repair the scandal you have given.
With the charity of Christ, I greet you fraternally.
- Frankiskos Papamanolis, o.f.m. cap
President of the Episcopal Conference of Greece
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Brendan
Guest
It is actually nebulos on the issue, thus it cannot be taken to reverse the teachings of F.C.
This is always true, but the doorway, per the teachings of the Church, is through Confession, one of the Sacraments. A.L. did not attempt to change that.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
While I don’t blame him for trying to lead his brother Cardinal back into full obedience to Pope Francis, this is extremely disheartening that the divided parties have been so far reaching in this.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
From the quotes I’ve read, it didn’t mention specific Sacraments. So, indeed Pope Francis may have meant Confession.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
No this is fine. However, there are still several crossing that line in this thread.
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Kash00315
Guest
I’ll have to disagree with your first half, full obedience is not the same as blind obedience, but yes it’s sad the divide all this is causing.
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Brendan
Guest
Having served in the military as an Officer, at no point did I ever take the asking of clarification on a directive to be a lack of obedience. It was an expected part of leadership, both from my subordinates and towards my superiors.
Hence, I did not read any lack of obedience into this, or any other dubia.
In fact, if one looks at the role of the Cardinalate, it corresponds pretty closely to the role of an XO (Executive Officer). If the orders are unclear to them, or to the officers below them, it is their duty to ask for clarification.
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KSU
Guest
The crux of your posts is that laymen have no business questioning or commenting on this matter, and that, by doing so, they are disrespectful. But you have again exempted yourself, not only from commenting but from criticizing the Cardinal (not in" full obedience to Pope Francis") on a CAF Forum.
Please stop it before you get this thread closed.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
I will not quit, I’m not the sole “outspoken” one here. But that’s another story. :
I don’t think it would be a bad thing that this thread get locked. We need not discuss this at all, especially considering we haven’t even received the official document public ally.
Also, the Cardinal is not in full submission to Rome if he is actively petitioning against him.
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Brendan
Guest
“Petitioning against him?” The Cardinals submitted dubia, per the normative process of the Church in regards to an area where there seems to be substantial disagreement, even among bishops.
That, as I mentioned above is well in line with normative practices of the Church, not a ‘petition’ against anyone.
If we must presume anything of the clergy (any clergy), it should be that they are acting in Charity with the best of intentions.
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kyrie03
Guest
Did you find the Dubia judgemental?
Would you agree that clarity from Pope Francis, answering dubia from the cardinals (which are also the doubts of many Catholics -including many posters on this thread) could put an end to some of the “bad mouthing”?
I, too, seek an end to disrespect and judgementalism. I signed the petition because I foresee continued silence as causing escalation in the divisions. Am I wrong?
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patricius79
Guest
I wouldn’t want the thread to get locked, because by discussing things respectfully we can come to a better understanding. I would like to know what Pope Francis thinks about having the intention to keep the moral law. I understand that life is complex, though, so I’m trying to keep an open mind.
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KSU
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fin
Guest
That’s what I don’t understand. If she does the criticism of a Cardinal, it’s okay. But if others supposedly ‘criticize’ the Pope even though they’re just questioning, they’re immediately disrespectful.
And she’s the one saying that we shouldn’t say disrespectful things about the Pope. Well, what about disrepectful things against the Cardinal or Fr. Frank Pavone?
What gives?
And she’s the one saying that we shouldn’t say disrespectful things about the Pope. Well, what about disrepectful things against the Cardinal or Fr. Frank Pavone?
What gives?
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KSU
Guest
My blank post 263 was sent inadvertently. Sorry.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
Pope Francis issued a church document (doctrine?), these 4 Cardinals are questioning his teachings as being immoral. I see that as going against the Pope. I take it you don’t. To each their own I guesss.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
Of course Pope Francis is keeping moral law. There is nothing immoral in the AL. Only implications of what is or isn’t insinuated or “written between the lines.” We must assume that the Pope was correct and that there isn’t something negative implied or “hidden” between the lines.
We should wait to pubically discuss this when this whole “fiasco” is settled. Not before.
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JimG
Guest
With respect to Amoris Laetitia, here is yet another analysis, in so far as AL attempts to resolve moral dilemmas by considering which is the lesser of two evils:
crisismagazine.com/2016/moral-dilemmas-justify-amoris-laetitia
crisismagazine.com/2016/moral-dilemmas-justify-amoris-laetitia
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