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PRmerger
Guest
LOL! Counter intuitive = false, then?
It’s counter intuitive to believe that there’s little micro-organisms living in your digestive tract.
And even more counter-intuitive to believe that a microbe could live in the acidic environment of your stomach.
But guess what! It’s true! Someone who said, “Counter-intuitive! Bleh! I’m going to see if a bacteria can grow in my stomach!” decided to do some experiments. And voila! Helicobacter pylori came to be discovered!
Thank goodness this guy didn’t follow your paradigm.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
It is a ‘dissing’ of Femininity because its saying that manhood and masculinity (and therefore men to a much greater extent than women) is like God, but womanhood and femininity (and therefore women to a much greater extent than men) are like the Church (something that is infinitely inferior to God).
But that is from my secular humanist perspective.
The Christian perspective is quite different.
I could easily fill up a dozen posts with statements and teachings from Catholic and Protestant Churchmen preaching on the special sinfulness, weakness, Lustiness, selfishness, intellectual inferiority, etc. of women. Although admittedly the pagan culture that came before Christianity in the West and present day Islam is no better with regard to women. Islam in particular regards women as lowly inferior creatures.
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
It is a ‘dissing’ of Femininity because its saying that manhood and masculinity (and therefore men to a much greater extent than women) is like God, but womanhood and femininity (and therefore women to a much greater extent than men) are like the Church (something that is infinitely inferior to God).
Not really.
But that is from my secular humanist perspective.
The Christian perspective is quite different.
I could easily fill up a dozen posts with statements and teachings from Catholic and Protestant Churchmen preaching on the special sinfulness, weakness, Lustiness, selfishness, intellectual inferiority, etc. of women. Although admittedly the pagan culture that came before Christianity in the West and present day Islam is no better with regard to women. Islam in particular regards women as lowly inferior creatures.
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AngryAtheist8
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I’ll try to find it.
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PRmerger
Guest
Really? It’s the secular humanists who are offended to be called feminine?
Indeed. The Christian (Catholic) perspective is quite respectful of femininity. And this is limned quite well by assigning this attribute to all of humanity–our souls are feminine.
Your soul is feminine, according to the Church, Angry.
I love saying that to you. It makes me smile to think that you now know that your soul is viewed as feminine.
That is, by itself, a great proclamation that the Church views the feminine with great respect, assigning to it your very soul.
I have no doubt that you could find lots of churchmen preaching on the sinfulness of women. And the sinfulness of men, too, of course you’ll find.
As far as the intellectual inferiority of women? I challenge you to find something from a Catholic theologian or Magisterial document on that! Something from this century would be really powerful. But anything from the Magisterium, from 1st century on, will be considered.
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mtngal25
Guest
I think we have discussed this issue enough. Everyone has made their points and anyone now should know the arguements. It is time to move on to something else. Either one is with the church or against it. There is no middle ground or gray area. No one is convincing anyone now and things just go in circles like a hamster in his little wheel. Either get on or stay on the barque of Peter or get off but be honest and act accordingly.
mtngal
mtngal
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GaryTaylor
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The Church of St. Praxedis in Rome shows, in the blue mantle, the Virgin Mary, foremother of women leaders in the Church. On her left is St.Pudentiana and on her right St. Praxedis, both leaders of house churches in early Christian Rome. Episcopa Theodora, "Bishop Theodora " is the bishop of the Church of St. Praxedis in 820 AD.
FALSE: Women (by virtue of their sex) cannot image Christ.
TRUE: It is the call of every female and male Christian to image Christ; and it is the call of every female and male Christian to see Christ in every person.
FALSE: Roman Catholic women have never been ordained.
TRUE: Epigraphic evidence exists of women bishops. Until at least the ninth century the Church gave women the full sacramental ordination of deacons. Women priests existed in the West during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence, and according to epigraphic evidence.
FALSE: Roman Catholic Womenpriests don’t have the necessary training to be priests.
TRUE: All women who are ordained have a Master’s Degree in Divinity, Theology, Religious Sutdies or the equivalent and work with an RCWP mentor to complete 10 units of further study that focus on the sacraments. The RCWP Program of Preparation usually consists of a minimum of one year of discernment before ordination to the diaconate, and usually an additional six months to a year before ordination to the priesthood.
FALSE: Roman Catholic women have never been ordained.
TRUE: Epigraphic evidence exists of women bishops. Until at least the ninth century the Church gave women the full sacramental ordination of deacons. Women priests existed in the West during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence, and according to epigraphic evidence.
FALSE: Roman Catholic women have not been ordained deacons or priests in the modern era.
TRUE: Ludmila Javorova, ordained priest, December 28, 1970, among other women ordained. For a list of other women ordained, please visit the History Page.
FALSE: These ordinations as women priests are not recognized or valid.
TRUE: The group “Roman Catholic Womenpriests” receives its authority from Roman Catholic bishops who stand in Apostolic Succession. These bishops bestowed sacramentally valid ordinations on the women listed above.
FALSE: Mandatory celibacy goes back to the earliest days of the church.
TRUE: Scripture citations refer to the marriage of Simon Peter. Citations also refer to married bishops, priests and deacons in the earliest Christian churches. Mandatory celibacy was universally required in the 12th century at the First Lateran Council in 1123.
1.) Jesus heals Simon Peter’s mother-in-law Matthew 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38.
2.) 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must be irreproachable married only once. 1 Timothy 3:4 A bishop must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.
3.) 1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons may be married only once and must manage their
children and their households well.
romancatholicwomenpriests.org
Didn’t read the thread:shrug: I did read the above sight though in light of a Catholic Woman Priest here Ordained.
FALSE: Women (by virtue of their sex) cannot image Christ.
TRUE: It is the call of every female and male Christian to image Christ; and it is the call of every female and male Christian to see Christ in every person.
FALSE: Roman Catholic women have never been ordained.
TRUE: Epigraphic evidence exists of women bishops. Until at least the ninth century the Church gave women the full sacramental ordination of deacons. Women priests existed in the West during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence, and according to epigraphic evidence.
FALSE: Roman Catholic Womenpriests don’t have the necessary training to be priests.
TRUE: All women who are ordained have a Master’s Degree in Divinity, Theology, Religious Sutdies or the equivalent and work with an RCWP mentor to complete 10 units of further study that focus on the sacraments. The RCWP Program of Preparation usually consists of a minimum of one year of discernment before ordination to the diaconate, and usually an additional six months to a year before ordination to the priesthood.
FALSE: Roman Catholic women have never been ordained.
TRUE: Epigraphic evidence exists of women bishops. Until at least the ninth century the Church gave women the full sacramental ordination of deacons. Women priests existed in the West during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence, and according to epigraphic evidence.
FALSE: Roman Catholic women have not been ordained deacons or priests in the modern era.
TRUE: Ludmila Javorova, ordained priest, December 28, 1970, among other women ordained. For a list of other women ordained, please visit the History Page.
FALSE: These ordinations as women priests are not recognized or valid.
TRUE: The group “Roman Catholic Womenpriests” receives its authority from Roman Catholic bishops who stand in Apostolic Succession. These bishops bestowed sacramentally valid ordinations on the women listed above.
FALSE: Mandatory celibacy goes back to the earliest days of the church.
TRUE: Scripture citations refer to the marriage of Simon Peter. Citations also refer to married bishops, priests and deacons in the earliest Christian churches. Mandatory celibacy was universally required in the 12th century at the First Lateran Council in 1123.
1.) Jesus heals Simon Peter’s mother-in-law Matthew 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38.
2.) 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must be irreproachable married only once. 1 Timothy 3:4 A bishop must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.
3.) 1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons may be married only once and must manage their
children and their households well.
romancatholicwomenpriests.org
Didn’t read the thread:shrug: I did read the above sight though in light of a Catholic Woman Priest here Ordained.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
How should we view Mary Magdalene? An Apostle no? The only one in all four Gospels to first witness the resurrection, then “sent” by the Lord, thus “Apostle”. 
Apostle is a title of distinct importance in the Bible. Paul prized it greatly. In 2 Corinthians 12:11-12, he seems rather annoyed not to be counted as one. Yet Mary too could say, with Paul, “I am in no way inferior to these “superapostles…” This is her entirely legitimate and scripturally based claim to fame. The word means, says Webster, “one sent on a mission” and it was Jesus himself who said to her, “Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father…’” (Jn 20:17).
"We also need the example of sanctity. Women especially need the encouragement of a Gospel role model who exercised bravery and leadership in challenging circumstances.
Perpetuating demeaning and unflattering stories about Mary Magdalene “reminds women of what has been done generally in the Church and in the world." And that has not always been honest or affirming. Why compound the challenge when Mary Magdalene can and should inspire women and men to be full, effective and dedicated witnesses to the gospel?" Elizabeth Johnson americancatholic.org
So much confusion these days.
I do believe St Augustine was right about the “other” Mary. “The Holy Spirit made Magdalene the Apostle of the Apostles.”
Apostle is a title of distinct importance in the Bible. Paul prized it greatly. In 2 Corinthians 12:11-12, he seems rather annoyed not to be counted as one. Yet Mary too could say, with Paul, “I am in no way inferior to these “superapostles…” This is her entirely legitimate and scripturally based claim to fame. The word means, says Webster, “one sent on a mission” and it was Jesus himself who said to her, “Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father…’” (Jn 20:17).
"We also need the example of sanctity. Women especially need the encouragement of a Gospel role model who exercised bravery and leadership in challenging circumstances.
Perpetuating demeaning and unflattering stories about Mary Magdalene “reminds women of what has been done generally in the Church and in the world." And that has not always been honest or affirming. Why compound the challenge when Mary Magdalene can and should inspire women and men to be full, effective and dedicated witnesses to the gospel?" Elizabeth Johnson americancatholic.org
So much confusion these days.
I do believe St Augustine was right about the “other” Mary. “The Holy Spirit made Magdalene the Apostle of the Apostles.”
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FCEGM
Guest
Read the above as comic relief. No woman has been ordained to the priesthood of the Catholic Church.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Would you please “read” before jumping to conclusions.
You didn’t bother to read the above web-sight I see. For you would clearly see you are “WRONG”. Dorothy Shugrue from Cheshire, CT was ordained 2011, September, which is how I became aware of this situation to begin with. From there I researched futher since I do not know her, yet I know someone who works with her.
Google her name and city/state and then read, also read the below web sight. Otherwise I will assume your simply unaware and talking without bothering to research.
romancatholicwomenpriests.org
You can even watch them being “ordained” on youtube. By “real” Catholic Bishops.
They cannot perform the Mass. They can and are ordained. Now if there is further word as to their standing from the Pope, its not yet been made. As of today they are Catholic Priests Ordained and are in fact “Women”.
Are they recognized by the Vatican, probably not, as to who exabtly ordained them and what happened I do not know. They do exist be it heretical or not.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I didn’t see the YouTube video which would have told me immediately if it was Mancini or Lori at the time. It would have had to have been one or the other in 2011. If it is a valid Bishop then they would be ordained no?
Or the other side is She may well have gone through some completely heretical process which is then calling itself Catholic, and would have nothing to do with Bishop Lori or Mancini. Could have been a Bishop outside of the Church also.
Certainly was all over the news here a few months back.
Or the other side is She may well have gone through some completely heretical process which is then calling itself Catholic, and would have nothing to do with Bishop Lori or Mancini. Could have been a Bishop outside of the Church also.
Certainly was all over the news here a few months back.
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PRmerger
Guest
I don’t think so, Gary.
The “right matter” is always needed for a sacrament to be confected.
If a priest consecrates Oreos and Pepsi it doesn’t “take” because it’s not the right matter: bread and wine are needed.
Similarly, if a bishop ordains a woman it doesn’t “take” because it’s not the right matter: a man is needed.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right I viewed the videos to see who actually performed the service. Apparently the women are ordaining themselves.
Thus using the name Roman Catholic.
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GaryTaylor
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Right, I gottcha now. 
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PRmerger
Guest
:bigyikes:Right I viewed the videos to see who actually performed the service. Apparently the women are ordaining themselves.
Yes, everyone wants to claim the name Catholic.
It reminds me of the quote by St. Augustine:
And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
Although somehow I think these womenpriests wouldn’t hesitate to point to their own chapel when asked where the nearest Catholic Church is.
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mtngal25
Guest
Sorry Gary, I do not believe you about the fact that women were ordained. Just because you say so does not convince me. As far as celebacy is concerned, it does not matter. I believe that the sacrifice priests make is good for the church. If the pope wants to change that, he can, meanwhile, so what! Either accept the present teachings and traditions of the church or find somewhere else to go. This thread has been hammered enough, and it is a waste of time to keep trying to prove things that don’t get anywhere. There are good reasons why the church does what it does officially and I go along with it. Whiners don’t convince me of anything. I don’t like the idea of women priests anyway and I would not attend the church if women were ordained because it has not been the tradition and I would not believe they were valid anyway so I would not accept any “mass” they tried to celebrate. That is that and so be it.
mtngal
mtngal
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GaryTaylor
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Fiasco
Guest
i
m a latecomer here, so its probably all been said, but just in case some of it hasn`t been, and to counter the claims made by “Roman Catholic Womenpriests”:That church was NOT a Catholic church. ** It was owned by gnostic heretics who had “priestesses”.** And those so-called “Roman Catholic Womenpriests” would be quite aware of that.
Women can`t image Christ in the SACRAMENTAL priesthood.
As above. (first comment)
A play act doesn`t make something OK.
As above: ie first comment about gnostics.
NYET!
There`s no such thing as “sacramentally valid ordinations” of women.
Saint Paul refers to the advantage of celibacy.
Taken in context, that doesn
t mean he HAS to be married; it just means that he cant be married more than once. Anti-Catholic “Christians” quote those same Scripture passages out of context.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
They are NOT ordained.
A bishop cannot ordain a woman.
Look if you walked into a church and the bishop held up a bottle of beer and a pizza and said the words of consecration, would the beer become the blood of Christ and the pizza the body?
NO
And they would not become such if the POPE HIMSELF said the words.
You cannot ‘marry’ a male and a male.
You cannot consecrate beer and pizza as the Eucharist.
And you cannot ‘ordain’ a woman.
And don’t just take my word for it. Check the Catechism and check the Vatican but for heaven’s sake, don’t take the word of some fly by night ‘website’ with an agenda who CLAIM to speak for a Church which doesn’t even RECOGNIZE them.
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mtngal25
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