Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

  • Thread starter Thread starter MarcoPolo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Because.
In time, we see that some rules are made to be broken…or at least, revised.
This is one of them.
But I guess it’s just not time…yet.
It makes no sense not to have women as priests. Being a priest is something spiritual and a calling of the soul, it is not linked to specific male sex organs, as childbirth is.
Jesus himself, we are told, did not take part in any sexual activity involving his gender-specific organs.
If several women–including Mary Magdalene, Jesus’ favorite–could hang out and move around with the apostles/disciples and help preach, why can’t women do so today?
It is unfortunate that mortal men–who exactly was this?–interpreted words collected in the Christian canon centuries after Jesus died to mean that women cannot be priests.
Very much so.
I hope that our granddaughters and their daughters after that will live in a time that is less rigid.
Respectfully, I call this the “the calendar fantasy,” which means, just because enough time passes, some things will change by themselves. It is wrong because only men and women cause changes by their decisions, good and bad.

Catholics must give their approval to the following:

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Pope John Paul II

Peace,
Ed
 
Not so random, no.
But that’s my point. Why are you looking at it as that he picked men as his apostles to mean that only men for the rest of eternity here on earth can be priests?
That may not have been his criteria.

There may have been other thinking behind his decision at that very moment in time.

It makes sense that he looked out at the group…saw that perhaps the women were in a difficult position having to have their periods every month (no convenient, portable tampons back then) or going through difficult pregnancies…and saw that it would be rough, unhealthy, dangerous for them to travel around to preach in harsh environments not knowing where they’d sleep or eat or whatever.

Also, he may have thought at the time that people will listen more to men than to women–since women held no positions of authority back then and were told to keep their mouths shut (as per that one biblical quote by…Paul, is it?). If that was the case, then that was a good choice. If I was hiring for apostle jobs, I may have done the same then–THEN, as per the surrounding conditions and culture.

But the set-up is completely different today, two thousand years later.
Most priests sleep in comfortable homes and go to a safe church to preach.
Women vote and are doctors and lawyers and politicians and in positions of authority, and people will listen to their wisdom.
Women today go out and fight wars.

His decision at the time may have been based on pure practicality of that specific era and we are misinterpreting it to mean something way different.

If he meant only men to be priests, you don’t think he would have been wise and clear to specify such an important point?
“pure practicality”? Only the teaching authority of the Church can tell us the following:

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Pope John Paul II

Peace,
Ed
 
Well put.
From a certain perspective Jesus/God is the ultimate patriarch/monarch, so Feminists (and perhaps women in general) shouldn’t expect much sympathy or understanding from those who embrace this worldview.
What worldview are you talking about? Respectfully, the Catholic Church is not a Democracy and is subject to the Will of God, not men. Once again, with respect, I would point out that people around the world are doing whatever they want right now and don’t care what the Catholic Church thinks. Why should this issue concern others who simply wish to do things their way and/or do not understand Church teaching?

Peace,
Ed
 
Well, I didn’t expect this to happen but then again, it wasn’t a surprise either. I mean, the Church has never allowed women to be ordained and never will. This is a good thing. Jesus only chose men to be His disciples. The early Church never ordained women although some people claim that they did.
 
**But when they teach on faith and morals, they proclaim without error.**That’s what we mean by infallibility. Nothing more and certainly nothing less.

If you’re going to argue against infallibility, you’re going to have to argue against the Catholic understanding of it. Not argue against, “Well, I heard the Pope once say that it was going to rain today, and it didn’t. so therefore the Pope is not infallible.”
Yes, but as the Catholic Church is usually quick to remind everyone, everything can be considered a matter of faith and morals.

You (I am using the universal you here) can’t have it both ways:shrug:
 
Yes, but as the Catholic Church is usually quick to remind everyone, everything can be considered a matter of faith and morals.

You (I am using the universal you here) can’t have it both ways:shrug:
Nope.

When the pope says that the Cardinals (no pun intended) are going to beat the Cubs, it’s NEVER going to be an infallible pronouncement.

Nuh-uh. No way. Not a chance.
 
Well, yeah.

If you’re going to argue against infallibility, and you’re on a Catholic forum, you’re going to have to argue intellectually and take certain presuppositions: God exists. God is good. God thinks enough of His Church to preserve it from error.
If you can’t make any of those presuppositions, for the sake of argument, then, again, you can just end all the discussions with, “Well, I’m an atheist and I don’t believe in God, so there!”
I have no problem arguing intellectually, but frankly there is even less reason to believe the highlighted assumptions than the basic premise of God’s existence.
 
Respectfully, I call this the “the calendar fantasy,” which means, just because enough time passes, some things will change by themselves. It is wrong because only men and women cause changes by their decisions, good and bad.

Catholics must give their approval to the following:

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Pope John Paul II

Peace,
Ed
Still condemning the very idea of change Ed?:rolleyes:
 
What worldview are you talking about? Respectfully, the Catholic Church is not a Democracy and is subject to the Will of God, not men. Once again, with respect, I would point out that people around the world are doing whatever they want right now and don’t care what the Catholic Church thinks. **Why should this issue concern others who simply wish to do things their way and/or do not understand Church teaching? **
Peace,
Ed
If you don’t want to debate the topic Ed, why are you posting to the thread?
 
I have no problem arguing intellectually, but frankly there is even less reason to believe the highlighted assumptions than the basic premise of God’s existence.
Great. We can discuss your objections to the belief that God is good.

(We’ve already established, then, that if God can create the universe, then it’s pretty easy for him to keep an imperfect man from proclaiming error, right? Done with that.)

Why do you believe God isn’t good? Because there’s bad things in the world? Because of the OT “commands” to kill?

The second one we can discuss later, if you’d like.

The first one is quite easy to refute, if you’re a parent. Or can imagine being a parent.

If you’ve ever taken your child in to the pediatrician’s office to get him immunized, and held him down while a medical assistant jabbed a needle into his thigh, I think I need not say anything further about God being a big meanie, right?
 
Great. We can discuss your objections to the belief that God is good.

(We’ve already established, then, that if God can create the universe, then it’s pretty easy for him to keep an imperfect man from proclaiming error, right? Done with that.)

Why do you believe God isn’t good? Because there’s bad things in the world? Because of the OT “commands” to kill?

The second one we can discuss later, if you’d like.

The first one is quite easy to refute, if you’re a parent. Or can imagine being a parent.

If you’ve ever taken your child in to the pediatrician’s office to get him immunized, and held him down while a medical assistant jabbed a needle into his thigh, I think I need not say anything further about God being a big meanie, right?
Just an addendum: I hope that the readers of this thread have the ability to think in the abstract and will understand the analogy posited above.

I am not proposing that God is literally immunizing his people.

I am not proposing that God literally holds us down.

I am simply saying that, just as we parent often have to let our children endure pain, (and sometimes are the source of it), and we can attempt to explain to them the intricacies of why we are inflicting pain on them “Junior! Your immunoglobulin titers are non-existent. We need to provide a stimulus to your immune system–to your T-cells and B-cells so that when you are exposed to Haemophilus influenza type B your body will be able to fight it and you won’t get epiglottitis!”, Junior is just not going to get it.

See? Even if God explains to us, we wouldn’t get it. 🤷
 
Yes, but as the Catholic Church is usually quick to remind everyone, everything can be considered a matter of faith and morals.

You (I am using the universal you here) can’t have it both ways:shrug:
Only given the proper context for each and every situation. Your sweeping over-generalization doesn’t do anyone any favors, and makes you come off looking rather…uninformed, on the subject.
 
Great. We can discuss your objections to the belief that God is good.

(We’ve already established, then, that if God can create the universe, then it’s pretty easy for him to keep an imperfect man from proclaiming error, right? Done with that.)

Why do you believe God isn’t good? Because there’s bad things in the world? Because of the OT “commands” to kill?

The second one we can discuss later, if you’d like.

The first one is quite easy to refute, if you’re a parent. Or can imagine being a parent.

If you’ve ever taken your child in to the pediatrician’s office to get him immunized, and held him down while a medical assistant jabbed a needle into his thigh, I think I need not say anything further about God being a big meanie, right?
You are comparing things such as torture, chronic illness, rape, etc. (all the evils that God is ultimately responsible for under Christian theology) to giving a child shots:eek::rolleyes::mad:
 
Great. We can discuss your objections to the belief that God is good.

(We’ve already established, then, that if God can create the universe, then it’s pretty easy for him to keep an imperfect man from proclaiming error, right? Done with that.)

Why do you believe God isn’t good? Because there’s bad things in the world? Because of the OT “commands” to kill?

The second one we can discuss later, if you’d like.

The first one is quite easy to refute, if you’re a parent. Or can imagine being a parent.

If you’ve ever taken your child in to the pediatrician’s office to get him immunized, and held him down while a medical assistant jabbed a needle into his thigh, I think I need not say anything further about God being a big meanie, right?
Big meanie doesn’t seem appropriate.
Sadist appears more accurate (assuming you take the Bible literally).
 
Only given the proper context for each and every situation. Your sweeping over-generalization doesn’t do anyone any favors, and makes you come off looking rather…uninformed, on the subject.
My generalization is no more sweeping than the authority the Catholic Church claims for itself.

Name ONE major aspect or area of life that the Church admits it should have no authority over (teaching or otherwise) and that people and/or governments should just do their own thing with regard to.

I am fairly confident that you can’t (because there isn’t one).
 
My generalization is no more sweeping than the authority the Catholic Church claims for itself.

Name ONE major aspect or area of life that the Church admits it should have no authority over (teaching or otherwise) and that people and/or governments should just do their own thing with regard to.

I am fairly confident that you can’t (because there isn’t one).
Strawman.

YOU are the one claiming that the Church has labeled areas of life that it ‘admits it has no authority over TEACHING OR OTHERWISE and people should just do their own thing’.

You made the claim with no support. You just throw the words out there as though by your stating them they are inerrant fact.

And if we tried going piece by piece even with statements from the Catechism about lawful government etc., you would pull some kind of example that you would say ‘proves’ your point. Argumentum ad infinitum.

Uh-uh, nope. We aren’t going to play the game.

When you start making actual specific statements which you can back up with proven facts, and not just throw out broad generalizations and unsupported assertions, we’ll be happy to have a dialogue, but why should anybody here give you a bully pulpit for your strawman arguments which you attempt to pass off as Church teaching???
 
Strawman.

YOU are the one claiming that the Church has labeled areas of life that it ‘admits it has no authority over TEACHING OR OTHERWISE and people should just do their own thing’.

You made the claim with no support. You just throw the words out there as though by your stating them they are inerrant fact.

And if we tried going piece by piece even with statements from the Catechism about lawful government etc., you would pull some kind of example that you would say ‘proves’ your point. Argumentum ad infinitum.

Uh-uh, nope. We aren’t going to play the game.

When you start making actual specific statements which you can back up with proven facts, and not just throw out broad generalizations and unsupported assertions, we’ll be happy to have a dialogue, but why should anybody here give you a bully pulpit for your strawman arguments which you attempt to pass off as Church teaching???
Strawman:rolleyes:

Hardly.

What could be a more purely secular matter than Economics, yet the Pope feels it is his place to set the guidlines for this aspect of life too.

Here’s a link to an article on the subject:
onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2009/07/pope_benedict_on_economic_justice.html
 
Strawman:rolleyes:

Hardly.

What could be a more purely secular matter than Economics, yet the Pope feels it is his place to set the guidlines for this aspect of life too.

Here’s a link to an article on the subject:
onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2009/07/pope_benedict_on_economic_justice.html
I told you, we aren’t playing.

Just as I suspected, you (purely from your own opinion) have ‘determined’ that subject X (Economics) is PURELY SECULAR.

We, of course, are expected to swallow that without question.

And then you comment by using an article which does not present Pope Benedict’s remarks in context, but rather comments by another person (representing that person’s opinion of what the Pope meant).

And of course, as I suspected, you then make the claim that the Pope "feels HE ‘gets to set the guidelines’ on this PURELY secular matter. . .

As if nobody but the Pope has EVER commented on the subject of economics and that nobody, not even your ‘secular’ economists, have ever called for ANY change in the subject whatsoever. Oh no, only the POPE is forbidden to weigh in on a subject which YOU have determined is purely ‘secular’ (because you SAY so). .

You really appear to be interested in, as I said, nothing more than trying to take the bully pulpit to present your personal opinion of what you think Catholicism teaches, and to criticize it.
 
Big meanie doesn’t seem appropriate.
Sadist appears more accurate (assuming you take the Bible literally).
You assume that I take the Bible in the literal way that you do? No, I do not. :nope:

I take it as it was intended to be understood–through the lens of the Faith which gave you the Bible: the Catholic faith.
 
You are comparing things such as torture, chronic illness, rape, etc. (all the evils that God is ultimately responsible for under Christian theology) to giving a child shots:eek::rolleyes::mad:
It does indeed appear, as I feared, that you are incapable of understanding analogies.

“Torture, chronic illness, rape, etc” do not equal “giving a child shots” in the analogy.

Look at it this way: here’s a very simple analogy:

Christmas tree : ornaments :: Earlobe : earrings.

Now, I am not saying a Christmas tree IS an earlobe. And to say, “You are comparing a Christmas tree to an earlobe!” indicates that this person has an inability to think in the abstract.

Christmas tree and earlobe are alike as ANALOGS ONLY.

Torture and immunizing a child are alike as ANALOGS ONLY.

So, you can try to explain to your 3 year old why his haemophilus influenzae B titers are low and what that means should he get exposed to this very dangerous microbe, but he’s just going to look at you and say, (if he’s bratty), “I don’t care! And you’re a big meanie, too!”

🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top