Pope receives tiara from Catholic and Orthodox Christians

[InquisitorMax]

That’s not the attitude expressed here. It’s not a question of “you don’t really need this.” It’s a question of absolutely insisting on having it and insisting that IT is a constituent element of Catholicism and the Faith will be altered without it. The Faith won’t be altered in the absence of the Triregnum. That was the point. It histrionic to say otherwise.

And holiness CAN be recognized without the trappings. It regularly is.

I didn’t say recognised. I said seen. We see, we hear, we smell. It is wicked to deliberately keep the ‘trappings’ from the needy.

A well-stocked church, where Mass is said with beautiful vestments, candles, statues incense and Chant will impress even the ignorant and transport the pious. It helps convert the pagan and inspire fervour in believers.

Christ made more manifest on Earth and the best people living in a First World country can manage is a church that looks like a meeting hall, albs and folk hymns.

Meanwhile their children are paying $50 to go see stylish pop singer yell sleazey lyrics to a stunning pyrotechnic backdrop. Satan ‘gets’ theatrics. The church used to outmatch him.

 

[Hesychios]

I think all bishops should wear crowns.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I think all bishops should wear crowns.

Actually, in Great Britain, they would be more like coronets. Bishops there are given precedence between viscounts and barons, while Archbishops are styled “Your Grace,” which is the form of address for dukes (and the Archbishop of Canterbury outranks everyone in Britain who is not royalty, though I doubt that that would include Cardinals, who are princes of the Church).

 

[Young_Thinker]

I read in Light of the World where Pope Benedict was asked about the time that he wore the camauro and another time he wore the saturno. He said that he had put them on because there was nothing else handy and he is very sensitive to hot and cold. He quickly added that he would never wear them again, because they were no longer culturally appropriate.

So I suppose that next, the Holy Father’s mozzeti are going to be placed in a museum, too? And I do not want sound uncharitable when speaking about the Pope, but when has “culturally appropriate” come to mean giving up your suits and sweaters so as to dress like the average beer-drinking slob?

 

[JReducation]

So I suppose that next, the Holy Father’s mozzeti are going to be placed in a museum, too? And I do not want sound uncharitable when speaking about the Pope, but when has “culturally appropriate” come to mean giving up your suits and sweaters so as to dress like the average beer-drinking slob?

Does Pope Benedict look like a beer-drinking slob?

He simply has different taste in dress. This as a man who never wore a cassock or a Roman collar until he came to work at the Vatican. He always wore a shirt and tie. When asked if he still dresses in street clothes, as he did when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, he said that he did not. Not because he does not like street clothes, but because Bl. John Paul had set a precedent that the pope always wore a cassock or a collar. However, even Bl. John Paul was very simple in his dress. He was the one who shelved the papal red slippers for brown leather shoes, because he said that that the slippers were not something that today’s working man wears. He was burried in those shoes. Which was rather funny, because he was laid out in papal regalia and on his feet were these worn burgandy leather loafers that he had worn for years.

Bl. John XXIII only wore the white cassock in public. Otherwise he wore a black cassock, because it allowed him to roam the streets of Rome without being noticed.

Pope Benedict likes designer clothing and accessories. In keeping with tradition, he does not wear the red slippers, but orders red leather Prada shoes from the designer. He has a right to that. He’s a secular priest, not a friar or a monk. Just as he is not bound to a specific form of dress in daily wear, he’s not bound to any other form of dress.

Each man has his personality and taste. We should respect that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Young_Thinker]

Each man has his personality and taste. We should respect that.

Indeed, I will agree with you on that, Brother. I guess that I am just tired of seeing pictures of beautiful old cities and in Europe that are ruined by ugly aspects of modernity like people roaming around in t-shirts and jeans and talking on their cellular 'phones, not to mention all of the backpacking tourists. As for Bld. John XXIII wearing black cassocks while Pope, I think that such a garment would look nice with a white zuccheto and papal fascia, maybe white buttons while you are at it, and do not forget about the red shoes. I know that that obviously was not the point, but I do not think that I could give up talking about style! A blue soutane (since blue and white are Marian colors) might also be nice, but I do not think that the Holy Father would want to look like the American flag!

 

[JReducation]

Indeed, I will agree with you on that, Brother. I guess that I am just tired of seeing pictures of beautiful old cities and in Europe that are ruined by ugly aspects of modernity like people roaming around in t-shirts and jeans and talking on their cellular 'phones, not to mention all of the backpacking tourists. As for Bld. John XIII wearing black cassocks while Pope, I think that such a garment would look nice with a white zuccheto and papal fascia, maybe white buttons while you are at it. I know that that obviously was not the point, but I do not think that I could give up talking about style!

Times change and so do other things. As long as the absolutes remain absolute, the rest can change and will change.

All those beautiful old buildings were not always old. Once upon a time they were very new and for all we know, they may have shocked the senses of the people of the time.

Having studied my doctoral degree in Rome, I can tell you from first hand experience that the Vatican and the surrounding community is a beautiful tapestry of the old and the new. I’ll never forget watching the Monsignori walking across the piazza at St. Peter’s in their cassocks, wearing a backpack and talking on their cell phones.

I remember when Mother Angelica founded the Brothers, Knights of the Holy Eucharist. They were the first Franciscan men to wear knee-length habits. The lay faithful thought the look was too modern. Little did they know that the design goes back to the 1500s. Today, the design is worn by many friars in warmer climates

My point is that there is always going to be a blend of the old and the new and we cannot stop that. We simply have to make sure that the blend is harmonious.

And you’re right. The Holy Father would not like looking like an American flag, especially when the USA is not a country on his top 10 favorite list.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MarkThompson]

Pope Benedict likes designer clothing and accessories. In keeping with tradition, he does not wear the red slippers, but orders red leather Prada shoes from the designer. He has a right to that. He’s a secular priest, not a friar or a monk. Just as he is not bound to a specific form of dress in daily wear, he’s not bound to any other form of dress.

They are not Prada shoes, though this misconception persists. The shoes are the work of an Italian cobbler named Adriano Stefanelli.

 

[JReducation]

They are not Prada shoes, though this misconception persists. The shoes are the work of an Italian cobbler named Adriano Stefanelli.

Ahhhhhhh, OK, I stand corrected. Thanks.

He must be good, because those shoes look very good.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[GIR]

I would love to see him wear it again, but I don’t think most people on here are insisting that he must wear it or else.

As for the “sell it and give the money to the poor” argument, that’s really starting to get on my nerves. It’s always someone else who has to sell their stuff. Remember, to a lot of people, even having internet access, let alone high speed internet access, is an unaffordable luxury, same thing goes for pretty much everything we take for granted here in the “developed” world. Heck, you probably are wearing clean clothes and comfortable shoes and sitting in an air conditioned house while kids in Africa are running around exposed to the unforgiving elements.

 

[GIR]

I didn’t say recognised. I said seen. We see, we hear, we smell. It is wicked to deliberately keep the ‘trappings’ from the needy.

A well-stocked church, where Mass is said with beautiful vestments, candles, statues incense and Chant will impress even the ignorant and transport the pious. It helps convert the pagan and inspire fervour in believers.

Christ made more manifest on Earth and the best people living in a First World country can manage is a church that looks like a meeting hall, albs and folk hymns.

Meanwhile their children are paying $50 to go see stylish pop singer yell sleazey lyrics to a stunning pyrotechnic backdrop. Satan ‘gets’ theatrics. The church used to outmatch him.

Of course. the “trappings” are an essential part of worship. They are worship. The one thing that really pulled me out of a nihilistic funk a few years ago was listening to chant and polyphony.

In a way, all of these things do belong to the poor already. When I went to st. peter’s, I had the feeling that this was “my” church, like it was built for my benefit.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Times change and so do other things. As long as the absolutes remain absolute, the rest can change and will change.

All those beautiful old buildings were not always old. Once upon a time they were very new and for all we know, they may have shocked the senses of the people of the time.

Having studied my doctoral degree in Rome, I can tell you from first hand experience that the Vatican and the surrounding community is a beautiful tapestry of the old and the new. I’ll never forget watching the Monsignori walking across the piazza at St. Peter’s in their cassocks, wearing a backpack and talking on their cell phones.

I remember when Mother Angelica founded the Brothers, Knights of the Holy Eucharist. They were the first Franciscan men to wear knee-length habits. The lay faithful thought the look was too modern. Little did they know that the design goes back to the 1500s. Today, the design is worn by many friars in warmer climates

My point is that there is always going to be a blend of the old and the new and we cannot stop that. We simply have to make sure that the blend is harmonious.

And you’re right. The Holy Father would not like looking like an American flag, especially when the USA is not a country on his top 10 favorite list.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I understand what you are saying, Br. J.R. I suppose that I am rather nostalgic for the past.

 

[JReducation]

I understand what you are saying, Br. J.R. I suppose that I am rather nostalgic for the past.

I think we all get nostalgic for certain things. I had this conversation the other day with another brother. A parish in our area just built a beautiful new church. We were commenting how they managed to make it look like a church instead of a spaceship, while at the same time it’s very modern. I told the brother that one of the weaknesses of modern architecture is the absence of details. This is common not only in churches, but in public buildings as well.

I am from central Virginia. We have very old constructions that date back to the 1700s and very new ones from the late 1900s. The old ones have a certain elegance that the new ones lack. However, I grew up in an old farmhouse and I would not want to live in it again. I would love a house that looks like my parents’ home, but one that does not breathe so that we don’t freeze in the winter and melt in the summer, preferably one that is heated with gas or electricity and not coal as our home was.

The same thing happens with liturgical and religious dress. I’m thinking about the original habit worn by our Holy Father Francis. I wouldn’t want to wear it. I’ve seen it. It’s on display in Assisi. You probably would not approve of a friar wearing it either. It’s a tunic that goes down to your calves, with a chord and a cowl. You wear it without pants. The undershirt is like a nightgown, which is rather cozy in winter, but very hot and uncomfortable in summer unless you have AC. Given the Franciscan tradition that you only have two habits and that you wash them once a month, can you imagine sitting next to someone who is sweating in that thing in the middle of August?

The Capuchin Friars Minor have a joke among them. You can tell what the menu was for the week by looking at their habit. The spills and food stains are on their habits and they don’t wash them or change them regularly. You simply wipe off as much as you can with a damp cloth. Those friars who are smokers always have burn holes in their habits. The cigar smokers have the biggest burn holes. The pipe seems to be safer. I have never been able to keep a pipe lit, so I finally gave up on it; therefore, I wouldn’t know how safe it is.

Nostalgia can be good if it’s tempered. We have to move at a reasonable pace. There is a custom in my community that a brother never runs, but he does not dawdle either as if he had no place to go. This principle is what I always apply to change.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Young_Thinker]

I think we all get nostalgic for certain things. I had this conversation the other day with another brother. A parish in our area just built a beautiful new church. We were commenting how they managed to make it look like a church instead of a spaceship, while at the same time it’s very modern. I told the brother that one of the weaknesses of modern architecture is the absence of details. This is common not only in churches, but in public buildings as well.

I am from central Virginia. We have very old constructions that date back to the 1700s and very new ones from the late 1900s. The old ones have a certain elegance that the new ones lack. However, I grew up in an old farmhouse and I would not want to live in it again. I would love a house that looks like my parents’ home, but one that does not breathe so that we don’t freeze in the winter and melt in the summer, preferably one that is heated with gas or electricity and not coal as our home was.

The same thing happens with liturgical and religious dress. I’m thinking about the original habit worn by our Holy Father Francis. I wouldn’t want to wear it. I’ve seen it. It’s on display in Assisi. You probably would not approve of a friar wearing it either. It’s a tunic that goes down to your calves, with a chord and a cowl. You wear it without pants. The undershirt is like a nightgown, which is rather cozy in winter, but very hot and uncomfortable in summer unless you have AC. Given the Franciscan tradition that you only have two habits and that you wash them once a month, can you imagine sitting next to someone who is sweating in that thing in the middle of August?

The Capuchin Friars Minor have a joke among them. You can tell what the menu was for the week by looking at their habit. The spills and food stains are on their habits and they don’t wash them or change them regularly. You simply wipe off as much as you can with a damp cloth. Those friars who are smokers always have burn holes in their habits. The cigar smokers have the biggest burn holes. The pipe seems to be safer. I have never been able to keep a pipe lit, so I finally gave up on it; therefore, I wouldn’t know how safe it is.

Nostalgia can be good if it’s tempered. We have to move at a reasonable pace. There is a custom in my community that a brother never runs, but he does not dawdle either as if he had no place to go. This principle is what I always apply to change.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I always love your examples. Men who are experienced in life can often tell excellent stories. And your statement exemplies modern conservatism, which actually follows the principle of gradual change. By the way, what type of pipe did you try to smoke? I have thought about having a calabash (the kind that Basil Rathbone’s Holmes smoked) when I am a little older.