Pope recognizes illicitly ordained Chinese bishops (CNA)

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Your understanding is too simplistic. The situation inChina is rather complex. Most of the bishops who were validly but illicitly ordained, have requested recognition by the Holy See and it has always (I believe) been granted. There are a few bishops who have not, and Pope Benedict in 2007 told they faithful that for grave reasons they could received the Sacraments from these Bishops and ant priests they had subsequently ordained. The Patriotic Catholic Church has never been declared in schism, indeed 2 of their Bishops were invited by Pope Benedict to a synod in 2007 ( they along with 2 underground bishops were denied visas so did not attend). It is not always clear to Chinese Catholics which bishops have been recogognized by the Holy See, as the requests and grants by the Holy See have not always been.made public. There has been, I believe 2, bishops who were jointly appointed by the Holy See and the Chinese givernment. (that was done under Pope Benedict). In 2011, the Chinese government dug in their heals and again named two bishops without Vatican approval. Yes there is overlap between the Patriotic Catholic Church and the underground church, but it is not simply a matter of 2 parrallel hierarchies functioning, one the legitimate underground and the other a schismatic government church, that is being portrayed. It is much more complicated than that.
The more I study the situation, the more I see wisdom in what Francis is trying to do. And I must say, the more I find that the critics are often misinformed.
 
I see that I have been misinformed. Thank you for your patient and detailed explanation.
 
Your welcome. Let me add that I have lots of questions in my mind about the situation. The overall situation I described above I believe is correct. The details are correct, but on any one of them, as I discovered it, I would have questions that are difficult find answers to. I am tempted to spend a couple if days doing detailed research on the situation, alas I don’t have time right now.
I believe none of us understand this well enough to come to a conclusion the Vatican is in the wrong. They obviously have more information and understanding than anyone. It seems clear that we should be focusing on praying for the Chinese Catholics and not critucuzing an agreement we know so little about.

Here is some if my speculation:
This has been devloping for some time, it appears to me that it must have been one of Benedict XVI’s early initiatives. Although he seems to have been taking a less formal approach, but that may have been a means to have the way for a formal agreement. It seems possible, maybe likely, that the illicit appointments by government in 2011 were a means of forcing the Vatican to formalize what it seems Benedict did in 2007 as a “trial balloon”. So perhaps the die had been cast.
 
The Pope clearly finds himself in a very difficult situation here. Whatever decision he makes, the potential for disaster is very great. The Chinese regime has recently been attacking religious practices in general even more ferociously than it was previously. Let me repeat here a couple of links I posted on another thread a few days ago. The first, from CNA, is now two months old:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...igned-bishops-release-sinicization-plan-52052

The second one, from Crux, is dated Sept. 11:

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-asia-...ate-online-religious-activity-amid-crackdown/
 
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Genisis315 posted:
The Church did essentially the same thing with Napoleon’s secular government in 1801. In that case, like this, you had schismatic “constitutional bishops” (ie state bishops) appointed by Napoleon who had displaced the “emigre bishops” as they were called (like the Chinese underground bishops, except they had to flee France rather than go underground). Ultimately, Rome accepted the constitutional bishops and going forward had to have mutually agreed upon bishops between Rome and Napoleon (proposed by Napoleon, formally appointed by Rome) who would have to take an oath of loyalty to the French government. In the end, it worked–the Church outlasted the regime and to this day there is no schismatic state Church in France. We’ll see how this one plays out.
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I responded, we know how it will play out in China….loss of faith, because we see the falling away of Catholics in France when they attempted to serve 2 masters…
  • Although 53 percent of the French population consider themselves Catholic only 5% percent of them regularly attend Mass.
  • “French Catholicism has become a festive reality.” In other words, the practice of the immense majority of French Catholics is limited to life events such as baptism, marriage, death, etc. and to the major feasts of the Church. Practicing Catholics, however, number only 1.8% of the French population.
international.la-croix.com

The sociology of French Catholics

A study commissioned by Bayard Presse has identified six broad groupings of French Catholics.
international.la-croix.com international.la-croix.com
For where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also. The light of thy body is thy eye. If thy eye be single, thy whole body shall be lightsome. But if thy eye be evil thy whole body shall be darksome. If then the light that is in thee, be darkness: the darkness itself how great shall it be! No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and *mammon (worldly interests). Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment? (Matthew 6:22-25)
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You are seriously blaming the concordant with Napolean for the French people falling away from the faith? You have just lost all credibility.
 
😉
Thanks, I don’t seek credibility.
I do see wide-spread loss of faith in the wake of attempting to serve God and mammon.
 
BartholomewB said:
Papal Ostpolitik ?
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That was my first thought. The Church has done this before. Twelve million Catholics are a lot, but not a large percentage in China. I understand the move. Whether it is wise or not, time alone will tell.
 
Cardinal John Tong Hun does support it. He also understands the situation better than any of us.
 
Yes he does.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ca...sing-vatican-china-deal-is-unreasonable-67705

It is hard to take him seriously when he says that the Chinese government is becoming more reasonable as his given reason for supporting the deal.

www.google.com

Christianity crackdown: Police in China raid SUMMER CAMP

POLICE in China have stormed a Christian summer camp for young people as Beijing continues its heavy-handed crackdown against the faith.
www.google.com www.google.com

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/november/china-christians-jesus-communist-president-xi-j(name removed by moderator)ing-yugan.html#storystream

 
Thanks for the link. I found this troubling:
“That the precise terms of the accord are to remain undisclosed for now makes it easier for both sides to fudge on their commitments to each other.”
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Not starting off in the light of transparency just adds to the confusion.
 
These deals have never been made public. Go find a press release of the deal currently in place with Vietnam, you will fail. You guys will say anything to make this sound nefarious.
Once it’s public, the terms effectively become fixed. It’s dumb. Stupid.
 
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It’s dumb? Stupid? To be concerned about making deals with a communist government that even secular news media has stated is “cracking down” on Christianity? But we are supposed to believe that the Chinese government is now more reasonable and so it’s a good thing. We need to inform the Christians suffering at a higher level now than the recent past that it is fine because their government is actually more reasonable than it was before.
 
No, what I meant is it dumb to expect the details of these agreements to be released to the public. No one is saying the Chinese can be trusted or are reasonable. The point is, it’s a bad situation, and the Church has to try to do what is necessary to provide for an ongoing sacramental life for Chinese Catholics. It makes little sense to say “sorry folks, you live in a difficult time and place, but you won’t have any sacramental grace to help you through it.”. The church has to do what it can to provide for some level of continual evangelization in China. No agreement will be perfect. There is a reason why only 7 CPCP bishops are being recognized as part of this: because the Church has already recognize all of the others. There is a reason why Pipe Benedict worked with the Chinese government to name bishops a dozen years ago. He had to find out how “reasonable” he could expect the Chinese to be in any formal process.
It does no good to condemn any possible agreement with the Chinese out if hand.

It does no good, and is likely calumny, to condemn every Chinese who worships at a Catholic Church approved by the CPCA or every cleric approved by them. They are having to make do with the world as it is, in the best way they know how.
 
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I can see what you mean about expecting details to be made public. I don’t agree that this is a good move, but I respect your view point and I apologize for misquoting you.
 
The title of this thread and the corresponding article illustrates so well the level of misunderstanding and the fact this whole issue us being used as a means to attack Pope Francis. I recall no such outrage when St John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI recognized illicitly ordained Chinese Bishops. Yet this has been the Vatican policy since 1981.
If the Church were to rely on only underground bishops, millions of Catholics would not have any functioning hierarchy and would be left out in the cold.
And, do not think that the Vatican had any say in who any if the underground bishops were. Most of those were ordained in secret during the years of Mao. When/if they became known to Rome, they were recognuzed as legitimate. . Even those ordained after Mao, were recognized after the fact by the Vatican.

If Pope Francis had done nothing more than implement his predecessor s’ policies, he would be attacked.
 
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