Pope: 'Responsible parenthood' doesn't mean birth control

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The problem that I have with what he said…

He makes it sound as if we have total control over our fertility. We don’t! So, I am supposed to decide whether or not it is prudent to have another baby. Check. I can do that. Then, I am supposed to prevent said baby by the ONLY tool the church allows: NFP.

And therein lies the problem. I use NFP…and we had an NFP baby…it is not always as accurate as advertised…and the baby we had? It was irresponsible to do so. And we failed. NFP failed. And if Pope Francis knew my story, and heard about the baby I had, he would likely pass judgment on me, saying that ‘we don’t need to be like rabbits’…and then remind me of the tools available to me…"

Just doesn’t sit well with me…

NFP is not 100%, so do not make parents feel bad for having a baby when they shouldn’t have, especially when they were following church teaching 100% of the way…
 
AP4Him said:
The problem that I have with what he said…

He makes it sound as if we have total control over our fertility. We don’t! So, I am supposed to decide whether or not it is prudent to have another baby. Check. I can do that. Then, I am supposed to prevent said baby by the ONLY tool the church allows: NFP.

And therein lies the problem. I use NFP…and we had an NFP baby…it is not always as accurate as advertised…and the baby we had? It was irresponsible to do so. And we failed. NFP failed. And if Pope Francis knew my story, and heard about the baby I had, he would likely pass judgment on me, saying that ‘we don’t need to be like rabbits’…and then remind me of the tools available to me…"

Just doesn’t sit well with me…

NFP is not 100%, so do not make parents feel bad for having a baby when they shouldn’t have, especially when they were following church teaching 100% of the way…
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My mother was a good Catholic girl; I have lots of siblings. But there was a point at which she (and my father) said enough was enough while she was still young enough to have more. When I grew up, she explained to me that while the Church’s position on abortion made perfect sense to her, its position on birth control met with much resistance. Her words “they lost us with that one”. Call it selfishness, whatever, but when it’s made progressively difficult to have many children and see them all become full-fledged responsible adults, of course parents will want to limit how many children they have. The important thing to remember is that this tendency to want fewer children is nowhere near limited to the time since WW2.

This debate is nothing new, not even in Christianity, it has gone back thousands of years. For example, one should read about the plant silphium which was grown in what is now modern day Libya and became extinct a few hundred years before Christ. One of its most common medicinal uses was as a contraceptive. Another example, there have been various debates through the Church’s history over sexual practices outside of intercourse. A good portion of those debates addressed such non-intercourse practices as active ways to be non-procreative, and of course preached against them.
 
SWolf said:
Humanae Vitae says there must be “Well Grounded Reasons”. I don’t want more kids is not a well grounded reason.
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“I don’t want more kids” is not even a reason. It’s a statement. A ‘reason’ is something that generally follows a conjunction like ‘because’. If I said “I want a drink of water” and you replied “That’s not a well grounded reason”… does that sound appropriate? Maybe a dictator could claim such control over another. Me - “I want a drink of water”. Dictator - “That’s not a good enough reason since only I can authorise your water consumption”.
As is clear from the number of Catholics using contraceptives and the relative size of Catholic families, the “problem” of Catholics having too big of families is practically non-existent.
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Big or small families are not the problem. It is those who believe that the parental vocation is not dependent on the discernment of the couple, but on their own ideological standard of what a good Catholic does.
Also, “ideological breeders”? Seriously?
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Yes seriously. Family is a vocation. A vocation is a unique gift given to people to be used to glorify God to be discerned in the heart of the couple. If having a specific number or gender of children is being dictated by some ideological expectation rather than with consideration of the couples capacity to provide and care for them… we depart from the Church teaching.
 
LongingSoul said:
“I don’t want more kids” is not even a reason. It’s a statement. A ‘reason’ is something that generally follows a conjunction like ‘because’. If I said “I want a drink of water” and you replied “That’s not a well grounded reason”… does that sound appropriate? Maybe a dictator could claim such control over another. Me - “I want a drink of water”. Dictator - “That’s not a good enough reason since only I can authorise your water consumption”.
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Okay. “We are not having more kids because I don’t want more kids” is not a valid reason for not having more children.
LongingSoul said:
Big or small families are not the problem. It is those who believe that the parental vocation is not dependent on the discernment of the couple, but on their own ideological standard of what a good Catholic does.
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A good Catholic family raises as many children as they can support. That is Church teaching.
LongingSoul said:
Yes seriously. Family is a vocation. A vocation is a unique gift given to people to be used to glorify God to be discerned in the heart of the couple. If having a specific number or gender of children is being dictated by some ideological expectation rather than with consideration of the couples capacity to provide and care for them… we depart from the Church teaching.
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And no one is saying that here, and I have never heard anyone say that.

Maybe some person has said something of this sort. Yet, for every hypothetical person who says “Catholics must have children regardless of ability to care for them”, I bet you I could find 100 people that say “X is breeding like rabbits.” or “Doesn’t X know about birth control?” I heard it several times talking about just my INTENTION of having a large family.

As I stated earlier, the amount of Catholics using birth control and having small families compared to previous generations that did not have near the abundance we have today, speaks for itself. There is absolutely no issue in the Church of parents feeling like they are obligated to have children beyond their means. There IS a serious issue of Catholics who think they can refuse to be open to life.
 
I think sometimes we forget that the Pope isn’t just speaking to America. Or Western Europe. I also think we sometimes don’t notice that he isn’t saying, “it’s this, not that”, but rather, “it’s this AND it’s that”. He praised large families AND he cautioned against having a large family just because it’s the “Catholic” thing to do.

And believe it or not, in some countries outside of this one, there ARE families having children well beyond what they desire and can care for, simply because they feel they’re “supposed to” and likely haven’t even heard of NFP…according to both my father in-law, born and raised (and with family still in) Mexico, and my husband’s aunt from Guatemala, anyway. I feel the Pope loves both large families and small families and wants married couples to approach their vocation with discernment AND openness to life.
 
FreciaMarie said:
I think sometimes we forget that the Pope isn’t just speaking to America. Or Western Europe. I also think we sometimes don’t notice that he isn’t saying, “it’s this, not that”, but rather, “it’s this AND it’s that”. He praised large families AND he cautioned against having a large family just because it’s the “Catholic” thing to do.

And believe it or not, in some countries outside of this one, there ARE families having children well beyond what they desire and can care for, simply because they feel they’re “supposed to” and likely haven’t even heard of NFP…according to both my father in-law, born and raised (and with family still in) Mexico, and my husband’s aunt from Guatemala, anyway. I feel the Pope loves both large families and small families and wants married couples to approach their vocation with discernment AND openness to life.
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👍:clapping::clapping::clapping::amen:
 
FYI, if anyone is interested, looks like Teresa Tomeo talked about this matter on her Jan. 20 show yesterday, as seen here (MP3 file). Looks like the discussion starts around the 14:30 part.
 
FreciaMarie said:
I think sometimes we forget that the Pope isn’t just speaking to America. Or Western Europe. I also think we sometimes don’t notice that he isn’t saying, “it’s this, not that”, but rather, “it’s this AND it’s that”. He praised large families AND he cautioned against having a large family just because it’s the “Catholic” thing to do.

And believe it or not, in some countries outside of this one, there ARE families having children well beyond what they desire and can care for, simply because they feel they’re “supposed to” and likely haven’t even heard of NFP…according to both my father in-law, born and raised (and with family still in) Mexico, and my husband’s aunt from Guatemala, anyway. I feel the Pope loves both large families and small families and wants married couples to approach their vocation with discernment AND openness to life.
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I agree BUT NFP is not as easy or as accurate as he assumes…even with perfect use 1-2 out of 100 woman are going to have a baby, one that may be irresponsible to have…with actual use that number is higher…

I see a great lack of charity and understanding in his (and other clergy) comments about fertility control…
 
AP4Him said:
I agree BUT NFP is not as easy or as accurate as he assumes…even with perfect use 1-2 out of 100 woman are going to have a baby, one that may be irresponsible to have…with actual use that number is higher…

I see a great lack of charity and understanding in his (and other clergy) comments about fertility control…
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1-2 out of 100 is equivalent to failure rates in condoms and birth control pills.
 
FreciaMarie said:
I think sometimes we forget that the Pope isn’t just speaking to America. Or Western Europe. I also think we sometimes don’t notice that he isn’t saying, “it’s this, not that”, but rather, “it’s this AND it’s that”. He praised large families AND he cautioned against having a large family just because it’s the “Catholic” thing to do.

And believe it or not, in some countries outside of this one, there ARE families having children well beyond what they desire and can care for, simply because they feel they’re “supposed to” and likely haven’t even heard of NFP…according to both my father in-law, born and raised (and with family still in) Mexico, and my husband’s aunt from Guatemala, anyway. I feel the Pope loves both large families and small families and wants married couples to approach their vocation with discernment AND openness to life.
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I actually read an interesting article about missionaries in Guatemala teaching the locals how to use NFP. From what I read, they understand the need to only have as many children as they can care for, but just don’t have the tools necessary.
 
SWolf said:
1-2 out of 100 is equivalent to failure rates in condoms and birth control pills.
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Sure. But that is not what I am advocating…to get 100% we are talking total abstinence but that is not what he is encouraging us to do… he makes it sound like NFP is an easy solution for this lady. But, using NFP, she still may have had a baby that he feels is irresponsible. So, to really avoid being irresponsible he should have said that she needs to be totally abstinent… for years… but he did not say that because that would be highly unpopular, because NFP is presented as a wonderful replacement to artificial birth control… shows a lack of charity and understanding of her situation and the struggle parents like her face when trying to limit their fertility with precision using NFP. That is NOT an argument for condoms or any other form of birth control. I just ask that clergy be more charitable, understanding, and honest in these matters…he says she is tempting GOD, being irresponsible, and might orphan her kids, yet he reccomends that she use a form of fertility control that has a 1-2% chance of still leading to these things?
 
AP4Him said:
Sure. But that is not what I am advocating…to get 100% we are talking total abstinence but that is not what he is encouraging us to do… he makes it sound like NFP is an easy solution for this lady. But, using NFP, she still may have had a baby that he feels is irresponsible. So, to really avoid being irresponsible he should have said that she needs to be totally abstinent… for years… but he did not say that because that would be highly unpopular, because NFP is presented as a wonderful replacement to artificial birth control… shows a lack of charity and understanding of her situation and the struggle parents like her face when trying to limit their fertility with precision using NFP. That is NOT an argument for condoms or any other form of birth control. I just ask that clergy be more charitable, understanding, and honest in these matters…he says she is tempting GOD, being irresponsible, and might orphan her kids, yet he reccomends that she use a form of fertility control that has a 1-2% chance of still leading to these things?
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Apologies. I misunderstood the point of your post.

I would wince if ANYONE chastised a person for having more kids, especially in this day and age where the culture of death is so prevalent.
 
SWolf said:
Okay. “We are not having more kids because I don’t want more kids” is not a valid reason for not having more children.
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:rolleyes:
A good Catholic family raises as many children as they can support. That is Church teaching.
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That’s not the Church teaching and is the very ideology Pope Francis has in his sights. Catholic teaching is that couples are to be open to life and to practice responsible parenthood and are importantly not to be disquieted or disturbed by anyone regarding the makeup of their family.
And no one is saying that here, and I have never heard anyone say that.
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Maybe some person has said something of this sort. Yet, for every hypothetical person who says “Catholics must have children regardless of ability to care for them”, I bet you I could find 100 people that say “X is breeding like rabbits.” or “Doesn’t X know about birth control?” I heard it several times talking about just my INTENTION of having a large family.
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There are many threads and posters here who push the agenda ‘leave it in the hands of God’ and ‘God will provide’ and anyone who doesn’t have this attitude is supposedly not a good Catholic. It was good that Pope Francis addressed the issue.
As I stated earlier, the amount of Catholics using birth control and having small families compared to previous generations that did not have near the abundance we have today, speaks for itself. There is absolutely no issue in the Church of parents feeling like they are obligated to have children beyond their means. There IS a serious issue of Catholics who think they can refuse to be open to life.
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Again, the issue being discussed here is not large families… it is the erroneous ideology that large families are required for good Catholics. Having a small family but faithfully doing natural family planning is absolutely the definition of being open to life and you are misrepresenting Church teaching by saying otherwise.
 
AP4Him said:
Sure. But that is not what I am advocating…to get 100% we are talking total abstinence but that is not what he is encouraging us to do… he makes it sound like NFP is an easy solution for this lady. But, using NFP, she still may have had a baby that he feels is irresponsible. So, to really avoid being irresponsible he should have said that she needs to be totally abstinent… for years… but he did not say that because that would be highly unpopular, because NFP is presented as a wonderful replacement to artificial birth control… shows a lack of charity and understanding of her situation and the struggle parents like her face when trying to limit their fertility with precision using NFP. That is NOT an argument for condoms or any other form of birth control. I just ask that clergy be more charitable, understanding, and honest in these matters…he says she is tempting GOD, being irresponsible, and might orphan her kids, yet he reccomends that she use a form of fertility control that has a 1-2% chance of still leading to these things?
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Typical use failure is somewhere around 12% for NFP. Assuming PCOS or other problems with predicting fertility that number can creep up and up. I let you in on a little secret, NFP doesn’t work. The only way to prevent “breeding like rabbits” is to abstain until menopause. So yes I guess it is true that Catholics need not breed so frequently but it is disingenuous to suggest that is an easy task. As in “oh just use NFP or abstain.” You know, super simple stuff.
 
LongingSoul said:
:rolleyes:

That’s not the Church teaching and is the very ideology Pope Francis has in his sights. Catholic teaching is that couples are to be open to life and to practice responsible parenthood and are importantly not to be disquieted or disturbed by anyone regarding the makeup of their family.
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I’ll reiterate from Humanae Vitae:
If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)
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If a couple is emotionally, physiologically, and financially able to have more children, but stops at one and uses NFP to avoid more children, is that openness to life according to Humanae Vitae?
There are many threads and posters here who push the agenda ‘leave it in the hands of God’ and ‘God will provide’ and anyone who doesn’t have this attitude is supposedly not a good Catholic. It was good that Pope Francis addressed the issue.
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Show me.
Again, the issue being discussed here is not large families… it is the erroneous ideology that large families are required for good Catholics. Having a small family but faithfully doing natural family planning is absolutely the definition of being open to life and you are misrepresenting Church teaching by saying otherwise.
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No, what is being discussed is what is meant by openness to life. Humanae Vitae clearly states the criteria where NFP is acceptable. There are many reasons for small families. not all of which include lack of openness to life.
 
Burt_Macklin said:
Typical use failure is somewhere around 12% for NFP. Assuming PCOS or other problems with predicting fertility that number can creep up and up. I let you in on a little secret, NFP doesn’t work. The only way to prevent “breeding like rabbits” is to abstain until menopause. So yes I guess it is true that Catholics need not breed so frequently but it is disingenuous to suggest that is an easy task. As in “oh just use NFP or abstain.” You know, super simple stuff.
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12 percent? Show me the study.
 
Burt_Macklin said:
Typical use failure is somewhere around 12% for NFP. Assuming PCOS or other problems with predicting fertility that number can creep up and up. I let you in on a little secret, NFP doesn’t work. The only way to prevent “breeding like rabbits” is to abstain until menopause. So yes I guess it is true that Catholics need not breed so frequently but it is disingenuous to suggest that is an easy task. As in “oh just use NFP or abstain.” You know, super simple stuff.
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Ideally a couple becomes in tune with the fertile signs and cycles through the natural need to space each child. When periodic abstinence has become part and parcel of the life of a married couple from day one, NFP is an effective and highly certain science.

From my observations, it seems much more difficult to those who are coming out of either contraception or providentialism not so much because of perceived ineffectiveness but because of the limitations to sex. People who’ve never embraced periodic abstinence in conducting their sexual activities have a heightened sense of entitlement to sexual satisfaction and resentment towards abstaining. We have to learn to value abstinence as a sacrifice for the good of the marriage rather than as a punishment of some sort.
 
SWolf said:
I’ll reiterate from Humanae Vitae:

If a couple is emotionally, physiologically, and financially able to have more children, but stops at one and uses NFP to avoid more children, is that openness to life according to Humanae Vitae?
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Yes.
Show me.
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Heres’ the current one…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=938002
No, what is being discussed is what is meant by openness to life. Humanae Vitae clearly states the criteria where NFP is acceptable. There are many reasons for small families. not all of which include lack of openness to life.
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A couple doing natural family planning are always open to life. Even when they abstain.
 
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