Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'

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Do you agree with this?
Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.
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I think prisoners and prison guards would disagree and certainly people have found ways to escape these effective systems of detention.
 
If killing murderers was required for “state justice”, we would not have dozens of US states and many countries around the world having already abolished the death penalty well before, and completely separate from, any pronouncement by the Vatican.

States are also well aware that their justice systems contain bias and make mistakes in determining guilt and imposing punishment, and that is one reason why they would prefer not to execute people in this day and age. I decided many years ago I disagreed with the death penalty in USA simply because there was no way to apply it in a workable, completely unbiased, and error-free form. You would always end up with it being unevenly applied and with some people being wrongly executed. Therefore, I oppose it completely even without reaching the moral point.
 
Then do you disagree with Jesus when he said it is better that a millstone be hung around the neck of those who harm children and cast into the sea?
 
You are referring to this?
20 The use of small print in certain passages indicates observations of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations.
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I wouldn’t say that means that text is a prudential judgment.

I agree the previous text this replaces was problematic. This change doesn’t improve it.
 
I come from one of those countries that abolished the death penalty, its not sunshine and roses.
 
I gather the pope disagrees with Jesus when Jesus said It would be better that a millstone be tied around the neck of those who harm children and cast into the sea? I saw pictures of a child 6 months old that had been raped to death. It was truly one of the most abhorrent things I’ve ever seen. I think I’m going to side with Jesus on this one
 
I’m coming to find that when cafeteria Catholics agree with the Church, it’s a “moral issue.” When they disagree, it’s a “political issue.”
 
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We cannot leave the Church or talk bad about the Pope because of this, no doctrine or dogma has changed. We must stay united.
 
The irony is we probably have less effective means of detention thanks to soft hearted folks. Before they would probably shackle dangerous people indefinitely. Or they might cut off their hands which would render them
less capable of many crimes.
 
If its a moral issue then the church has changed it moral teaching. In which case the claim that it is the pillar and foundation of the truth flies out the window, so you had better hope its a politcal issue not a moral one.
 
Lilac said:
Big deal is that it reverses pre Vatican 2 teaching on the issue. This is never supposed to happen. It’s one thing for an issue to evolve, but it is entirely different when it reverses a Doctrine completely. I might also add that Jesus himself said that it would be better that a millstone be tied around the neck of those who harm children and cast into the sea.
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Based on what evidence do you make such an accusation?
 
Christ was referring to God’s punishment of the offenders, not advocating for a human-inflicted death penalty. I’m glad to hear that you side with Him.
 
If the church is against abortion in all circumstances, it only stands for reason that it will be against the death penalty for all reasons too. The dignity of the human person is paramount.

That said, even in first world countries, there’s not an absolute ability (or even a reasonable ability) to prevent an individual from committing murder from inside of prison to people outside of prison. The only way to absolutely have no need for a death penalty would be the imposition of solitary confinement that somehow ensures that communication cannot be in code or that the death penalty becomes an option when a prisoner circumvents his prison sentence in order to carry out killing people both within prison and outside of prison.

That said, it bothers me if the Pope has this as an infallible teaching vs church discipline because this is more opinion than an issue of whatever the church binds on Earth is bound in heaven vs whatever is loosed on Earth is loosed in Heaven. I’m taking that this is simply church discipline not doctrine that is irrevocable in the future.

If the Pope is going to declare infallible teachings based on his opinion rather than based on what Jesus declared as the prudential ability for the government to use capital punishment than he’s a heretic whom needs to be removed and the infallible teaching rescinded. But thankfully, I don’t think this is an infallible church teaching that cannot be reversed with new information or a new Pope (i.e. especially if its opinion). Jesus did give great deference to allowing the State to administer punishment as it saw fit. That doesn’t mean he agreed with its use or its abuses.
 
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There seem to be two oppositions to Pope Francis’s statements. One is questioning whether the conditions are in fact non-existent. One can debate this, but it becomes a debate about the facts and not about the faith (hence, If this is your only contention, then you aren’t really in theological or moral disagreement with the pope… you simply have a different assessment of current social conditions).

The other one that people are bringing up is the description of the death penalty as a violation of human dignity. Pope Francis does do this (maybe JPII does as well? But I haven’t seen him do so, and as a philosopher he was rather precise in his language). As others have said, the issue with such a characterization is that it implies that the DP is wrong regardless of the circumstances. You cannot violate one’s dignity, no matter what.
 
Jesus is saying that people who cause children to sin will face the wrath of God.

Matthew 18:6

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
 
There have been times in church history where we have had anti popes. At one time we even had three popes. I trust that God is going to clear this up. But I am not going to agree with a teaching that that not only flies in the face of church history it flies in the face of Jesus own words.
 
whichwaytogo47 said:
If the church is against abortion in all circumstances, it only stands for reason that it will be against the death penalty for all reasons too. The dignity of the human person is paramount.
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So there is no distinction that can be made between a parent agreeing to kill their own, innocent child and a legitimate government executing a serious criminal?
 
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