Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'

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una_ecclesia said:
There seem to be two oppositions to Pope Francis’s statements. One is questioning whether the conditions are in fact non-existent.
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Actually there is no debate. The conditions can be proven not to exist. All you need is one case and we have plenty.
 
Wesrock said:
So there is no distinction that can be made between a parent agreeing to kill their own, innocent child and a legitimate government executing a serious criminal?
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It depends on how much absolute weight is given to the dignity of the human person. That said, I feel that Pope John Paul II said it well but I think it’s misguided to only believe that the death penalty is only needed in third world countries for the reasons I’ve stated previously.

I am pro-life but pro-death penalty but I wish there was a way to make it less about vengeance and more about justice and more about preventing future murders from an individual who has already done so.
 
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I’m not trying to reason for the death penalty. I am saying that if you are going to make this change that is going to be challenged then the reasons you are stating for the death penalty not being needed should be factual.

Having said that…I lean towards no death penalty but it is those instances where murderers have been released or escaped to kill again. I am not concerned with the dignity of the killer in those instances.
 
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Putting to death an innocent child is not equivalent to putting to death someone who rapes a child to death. Can you see the difference?

If you want to know what God’s heart is on the issue of people that harm children, look no further than Jesus own words where he declares it is better that a millstone be hung around the neck of those who harm children and cast into the sea.
 
What does the heart of God say about those who harm children? Look no further than the words of Jesus himself where he declares it would be better than a millstone be hung around the neck of those who harm children and cast into the sea
 
What I mean here is that people are debating right now on this thread whether or not we can effectively protect society by keeping murders locked up without recourse to capital punishment. That we can do so may be true or false, (I think that it is false in certain areas, but not in others), but my point is that if the debate is over this, it is not a moral/ theological debate anymore. It really does become an issue of “prudential judgment” where the debate is over on-the-ground facts.
 
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Sorry what I mean is , that if the church is as it claims the pillar and foundation of the truth its moral teachings can not change. If this change by pope Francis on the issue of the death penalty is a moral issue then the church can not claim to be the pillar and foundation of the truth, because it changed its postion on morality. So Catholics had better view this as a political issue or it raises questions about the churches authority.

Hopefully thats a little bit clearer
 
Lilac said:
What does the heart of God say about those who harm children? Look no further than the words of Jesus himself where he declares it would be better than a millstone be hung around the neck of those who harm children and cast into the sea
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Totally agree. I am pro-life, but I am somewhat of a hypocrite because I do defend abortion when the life of the mother is in jeopardy or when the baby is already confirmed dead in the womb.

That said, doctors are human and people are human. That means we’re imperfect and we sin.
 
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whichwaytogo47 said:
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Wesrock:
So there is no distinction that can be made between a parent agreeing to kill their own, innocent child and a legitimate government executing a serious criminal?
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It depends on how much absolute weight is given to the dignity of the human person. That said, I feel that Pope John Paul II said it well but I think it’s misguided to only believe that the death penalty is only needed in third world countries for the reasons I’ve stated previously.
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I do not think the DP should exist in the modern world, but your original statement I think goes too far. They are not the same issue, and one could rationally oppose abortion in all cases and hold that the DP is morally admissible in specific circumstances without contradicting oneself. And I am not convinced that the DP is everywhere and always an attack on the dignity of the human person, anyway (at least in theory), which is a separate issue from whether or not we should still implement it today. And there’s the a distinction between theoretical application a d practical application of the principles at stake here, too.
 
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mere_christian said:
Sorry what I mean is , that if the church is as it claims the pillar and foundation of the truth its moral teachings can not change. If this change by pope Francis on the issue of the death penalty is a moral issue then the church can not claim to be the pillar and foundation of the truth, because it changed its postion on morality. So Catholics had better view this as a political issue or it raises questions about the churches authority.

Hopefully thats a little bit clearer
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I’m sure you’ve noticed my concerns with the revisions throughout this topic, and I have concerns about contradicting past teachings, but I do not think it’s been absolutely decided a contradiction exists yet.
 
The only issue I have with the death penalty is about the absolute confirmation of one’s guilt. That said, the primary purpose of the death penalty should be to prevent a criminal from committing murder from within prison to someone outside of prison. I would have loved to see Timothy McVeigh have life in solitary confinement but respect the ability for the state to institute the death penalty, particularly because we were absolutely or near absolutely convinced of his guilt.

I’m also against laws that allow/permit abortions.
 
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I don’t see how this contradicts The Lord, because Jesus is clearly warning people about Divine Justice, not the death penalty:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.
 
You said doctrine had been changed. Where is your evidence of this?
 
Autumn-Smoke said:
Let me try to understand this: When God commanded the death penalty in the Old Testament, this was ‘inadmissible’ ?
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No…God was not wrong, God was right. And He made that command in his infinite knowledge and a full understanding of where humans WERE in our development… a lot has happened since then and our Pope in his wisdom, in continuity with his predecessors and as God’s vicar is teaching according to what is needed now.
 
The scripture that I was referring to clearly teaches what God’s heart is on the issue of people that harm children. I really don’t see how it can be clearer.
 
Pre Vatican II catechism supported the death penalty. Pope Francis flipped that on its head. The Bible itself promotes capital punishment. Jesus promoted capital punishment.
 
So then it would also have to be your belief that Jesus contradicted the Old Testament teachings on capital punishment?
 
una_ecclesia said:
The other one that people are bringing up is the description of the death penalty as a violation of human dignity.
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But this language was already in the Catechism (and in Evangelium Vitae). Before Francis’ change, the CCC said that “non-lethal means are … more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.” So for Francis to say that the death penalty “is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person” seems consistent with what was already there.
 
Joe_5859 said:
But this language was already in the Catechism (and in Evangelium Vitae ). Before Francis’ change, the CCC said that “non-lethal means are … more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.” So for Francis to say that the death penalty “is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person” seems consistent with what was already there.
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Or with the timing of one’s death - that God alone should be able to decide when you draw your last breath not MAN regardless of the reason.
 
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