Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'

[mrsdizzyd]

Pre Vatican II catechism supported the death penalty. Pope Francis flipped that on its head. The Bible itself promotes capital punishment. Jesus promoted capital punishment.

In light of the following statement:

I do not even believe that Francis is a legitimate Pope in view of the fact that Benedict is still alive.

I’m going to suggest that you need to re-evaluate…

 

[Joe_5859]

Of course it has happened as well as prisoners and prison guards being killed by other prisoners.

The number of times doesn’t matter. The document should be factual as it is going to be challenged.

And I’ll admit, I don’t know any facts or statistics. But are there really situations in our world today where the reason someone is executed is because the state has admitted that it is the only way they can ensure a dangerous individual won’t kill again?

That seems to be the one exception that John Paul II granted that Francis is saying does not exist in fact. I can’t really argue with that point. I don’t see any government authorities that are saying, “We must execute this prisoner because he is so clever and crafty that we know he will likely escape and kill again and we have no ability to prevent that from happening.”

 

[godisgood77]

A lot has changed since then. Like what?

Here are a few:

1. Maximum security prisons
   2). rehabilitation programs… our much deeper understanding of the causes of heinous crimes and treatment programs to save the souls of those who commit them
   3). our understanding of human behavior and advancement of our penal systems - remember people used to be killed for adultery…

But last is this…’Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23)

And this…18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I’ll stick with Jesus

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You shouldn’t be discouraged, you should rejoice! The Church is better clarifying the practical consequences of the Gospel.

Don’t think of it this as “change” that threatens infallibility. That’s not how it works. You have to consider the Holy Spirit’s continual guidance in every age. In the early church, slavery was tolerated — only later for slavery to be explicitly condemned.

The difference is that the Church never explicitly stated that people had a right to own slaves, and then later explicitly stated that you do not have that right. There’s no contradiction in that.

With the death penalty, the Church has previously stated explicitly that the state has the right to execute prisoners in certain situations. Pope Francis is now saying that it does not. That is a contradiction.

I believe that this contradiction can be reconciled in areas like the US where there is really very little need to execute people for public safety. However, in other areas of the world with less secure prison systems, there may still be a legitimate need for the state to kill someone in order to protect others…

I don’t know how I feel on this one. I don’t like the death penalty, but I honestly feel that Pope Francis is wrong…

 

[yankeesouth]

And there are those that are against the death penalty but vote for pro abortion and other anti life issue politicians. This will just enable them even more.

 

[una_ecclesia]

My uncle was once jailed for theft in Venezuela. He had to kill people to survive on his own in the prison. The prisons are actually more controlled by prisoners than by the law. This was, admittedly, a few decades ago. But I highly doubt that conditions have improved there since then. How is it hard to believe that such conditions no longer exist?

You may be right about the justifications that particular governments use with respect to DP, but just because they use wrong reasons doesn’t mean that the conditions for which one can use correct reasoning don’t exist.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But this is a pointless argument, i feel you would still be against the death penalty regardless of the churches position.

Yes, I am against it, all morals aside. I am an attorney in USA and considered this topic thoroughly while in law school. I also worked for the Innocence Project decades before everybody got all excited about “Making a Murderer”. Having decided that our justice system was flawed beyond repair when it came to the death penalty, I spent a few hundred pro bono hours doing capital defense work. I came to all these conclusions without having to look at a Catechism or consider morals at all.

The fact that it is morally questionable to kill people who might be innocent, might be less culpable than others who are not killed, and might if allowed to live longer, repent of their crimes is just the chocolate sauce and cherry on top of the fact that the death penalty is from a practical standpoint unworkable.
(And worse yet, in USA, has become a political football, which is simply disgusting.)

So if the point of your discussions was to try to convince me of something, that boat sailed about 20 years ago, sorry.

 

[F_Marturana]

http://press.vatican.va/content/sal...ubblico/2018/08/02/0556/01210.html#letteraing

Letter by the Holy Father regarding the update.

 

[Athanasiy]

Unfortunately, it’s true that in the past they thought it would be cheaper to execute than to keep you locked up for life.
The Pontiff’s words is a strong message for third world countries.
As long as a person is alive he has a chance to change, he can also get peace with God even in a life cell, and working in prison, he can benefit society.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I don’t know how I feel on this one. I don’t like the death penalty, but I honestly feel that Pope Francis is wrong…

I’m sorry you feel this way, but I’m sure this isn’t something the Pope took lightly. There is a relevant document explaining the change.

There really is no huge change from the previous description in the catechism.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I don’t know how I feel on this one. I don’t like the death penalty, but I honestly feel that Pope Francis is wrong…

I just read through the relevant document, and it did nothing to assuage my concerns. This still feels like a direct contradiction to what was previously taught, not a development or continuation. Popes JPII and Benedict said that we should move away from it because it is no longer needed. That is worlds apart from saying that it is no longer morally permissible.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Compare this:

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

To this:

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state.

Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.

Consider the "consequently’ follows the explanation that today’s legal systems provide for other penal methods. this is exactly what JPII was saying/previous Catechism was saying.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The Pope is highly unlikely to change the Church stance on abortion, so there is no enablement going on here.

If our brothers and sisters who support abortion do not support the death penalty, then that’s good - they’re 50 percent in the moral right. We should reinforce the 50 percent morally correct thinking they have, not continue to kill people just to spite them.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yeah, there are other options and methods in certain areas.

Not everywhere

There are plenty of places where these options do not exist, and by making this change, the state is rendered (morally) incapable of protecting its citizens when the need arises…

I’ll pray on it, and it’s not going to make me abandon the Church or anything, but I cannot reconcile this new teaching with what was taught before.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Popes JPII and Benedict said that we should move away from it because it is no longer needed. That is worlds apart from saying that it is no longer morally permissible.

If the death penalty is no longer needed, it shouldn’t be tolerated, considering:

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

That’s the previous Catechism. This is no abrupt change. It’s perfectly consistent.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If the death penalty is no longer needed, it shouldn’t be tolerated, considering:

The problem is in making a blanket assertion that it is no longer needed. There is simply no way to make that statement and have it cover the entire world right now. There are just too many different situations and circumstances which require their own distinct approaches.

 

[yankeesouth]

That’s not the point. I’m not arguing the death penalty in this instance I am concerned about the statement. You really don’t know if prisoners and prison guards have been murdered in prison? Or prisoners have escaped to kill others? What does it matter the percentage.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Please provide concrete examples of situations where you think it would be a better option to just kill people, outside of a wartime situation.

 

[catholic1seeks]

From the accompanying letter:

All of this shows that the new formulation of number 2267 of the Catechism expresses an authentic development of doctrine that is not in contradiction with the prior teachings of the Magisterium. These teachings, in fact, can be explained in the light of the primary responsibility of the public authority to protect the common good in a social context in which the penal sanctions were understood differently, and had developed in an environment in which it was more difficult to guarantee that the criminal could not repeat his crime.

So there is an admission that the death penalty was once considered defensible because lack of other penal methods. Maybe it’s a prudential judgment whether or not the document should include that their are societies out there for which the death penalty is more relevant. However, like everything in the Catechism, moral teachings call us to the ideal state – the Gospel perfection. The Catechism is not the internal forum, so to speak.

Then again, the Pope is speaking for Western Civilization. What countries and societies don’t have alternative means in this day and age???

 

[AveOTheotokos]

The wording of the revision seems to contradict statements such as these, so confusion is inevitible:

Council of Trent: Catechism for Parish Priests:

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment- is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.

Pope Pius XII

When it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live.