Mark121359
Well-known member
There are many who believe so, and they make a pretty good case for it.
ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/ANNUL.TXT
Peace, Mark
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ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/ANNUL.TXT
Peace, Mark
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gracepoole
Guest
Is this a product of how the annulment process itself functions?
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ProVobis
Guest
One can’t discount the lifting of excommunications against the divorced in 1970.
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JimG
Guest
Only if the applicants lie about their intentions when reciting their vows. I have no idea why there are so many annulments, but I suspect that a great many couples really do not intend marriage for life. Sometimes it seems to me that they have no idea of what marital permanence even means.
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shelby_sun
Guest
It amazes me how ignorant people are on this site just because they have not experienced what others have and then they have the nerve to judge. Many times one of the married couple has every intention of staying married forever while the other changes and loses his way because of stress, life circumstances, or life events. Just because you have not experienced these things and choose to look badly on these people, God understands.
I dealt with a condition which I was fully open about with my boyfriend, even telling him he should not marry me because I didn’t think he could deal with it. He convinced me I was wrong. Ten years into the marriage with three children he basically told me he was humiliated of me and we haven’t had friends in 10 years. I am still here filling worthless and desperate, and my kids see it . I am still not willing to ever claim my marriage was invalid from the start. The Church is gaining a new understanding that some people are simply now, even though they have no experience or insight.
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JimG
Guest
Yes, I agree that many couples have every intention of staying married and yet they do not. I have known other cases where it seems to me that one or both parties never took the vows seriously from the start–perhaps there was some immaturity. I don’t doubt that many of those cases were invalid from the beginning.
The question of whether a marriage was invalid from the start depends on a number of factors influencing both parties. That is what tribunals are for and what they are experienced in doing. But it is up to each person whether or not to submit the marriage to a tribunal for examination.
My comment wasn’t really about your case, or any one case, but about a number of divorces I have experienced among friends over the years.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Well from my experience with numerous divorces of friends, usually one person simply is not facing what is going on in their marriage because they are naive, ignorant, immature, etc. My sister told us her husband was the last man that would ever cheat or leave his family while those around her were just waiting until he did just that. She didn’t listen or heed his pleas for change and one day he just left, and no one blamed him.
I have a co-worker who is having an affair because he won’t leave his wife and children, even though he desperately wants to. His wife is ungrateful, badgering, critical, negative, controlling, punishing, etc. and even though he has tried time and time again to tell her how he feels she knows he won’t leave so she doesn’t have to listen. That has left him very resentful and he has found someone else to build him up, although that is very, very wrong that is hsi way of staying married.
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pnewton
Guest
No, I do not think. You have already spoken how you feel about annulments, so I am not surprised you would read your opinion into this. Yet the Church is worried about the salvation of souls, not maintaining any status quo. There are multiple conclusions one can arrive at from the above statistic, only one of which is negative.
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JimG
Guest
With regard to the explosion in the number of annulments granted, I see several possibilities. One is that the tribunals are too lax, granting annulments for marriages which are really valid. Another is that there are a huge number of people who really are entering into marriages without the proper intent. I have no way of knowing, but I’m thinking that the second possibility is closer to the truth.
It seems that for the first half of my life, everyone I knew had no problem marrying and staying married. Then things changed, and it seems as though hardly anyone stays married. That’s an exaggeration, of course; a lot of people still remain happily married. But something happened to cause this seismic shift.
It seems that for the first half of my life, everyone I knew had no problem marrying and staying married. Then things changed, and it seems as though hardly anyone stays married. That’s an exaggeration, of course; a lot of people still remain happily married. But something happened to cause this seismic shift.
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ProVobis
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Like perhaps the 1970 lifting of excommunications against the divorced?
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JimG
Guest
Honestly, I was never even aware of it when it happened, so I’m not sure that it really had an effect on the divorce rate, but maybe so. I think there was a general social change in the view of marriage, but that’s just a thought.
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ProVobis
Guest
Actually I wasn’t aware of it until later. The case of Jackie Kennedy, a very public figure, brought it into focus at the time, however.
canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/was-jackie-o-excommunicated/
The interesting part was that an annulment wouldn’t have done her any good since she was “free to marry.”
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InFlux
Guest
Rules are made for the good of the majority? Really?
I came back to Catholicism from evangelicalism over this very point: that doctrines and disciplines must be a genuine reflection of the mind of God, and not a kind-hearted attempt to comfort or accommodate folks, majority or otherwise. Teaching the Truth whether pleasant or hard, for the love of Truth and for the glory of God, and not for any humanistic reason. IMHO, this is exactly what may be at stake here.
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shelby_sun
Guest
In OMHO, it sounds like you what justice, punishment over forgiveness or mercy. Why do you even care what happens to other? Shouldn’t you be worrying about yourself as a sinner,as we are all sinners. IMHO I find when people want others punished, they do not wan to focus on their own sins.Rules are made for the good of the majority? Really?
I came back to Catholicism from evangelicalism over this very point: that doctrines and disciplines must be a genuine reflection of the mind of God, and not a kind-hearted attempt to comfort or accommodate folks, majority or otherwise. Teaching the Truth whether pleasant or hard, for the love of Truth and for the glory of God, and not for any humanistic reason. IMHO, this is exactly what may be at stake here.
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JimG
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But InFlux said nothing about punishing others or preferring punishment to mercy. The poster simply said that teaching the truth is important, even when the truth is a hard one to follow.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Their truth, which doesn’t mean God’s truth, which may simply may not be completely revealed to us yet. I have a hard time when people think God has already reveal all His lessons and teaching to us. I feel there is much more to come; however, some want to limit HIm to what they what to learn. With God anything is possible. Who are we to place limit on Him.
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InFlux
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Thank you, JimG, for correctly understanding my comment.
Please clarify what you mean by ‘their’ truth
I have no more use for my own ‘truth’ than for anyone else’s personal ‘truth’. I capitalize Truth to indicate its necessary unity and singularity, i.e, its Catholicity. There is simply no rational reason to believe in a multiplicity of relative ‘truths’, nor for believing that a one-time divinely revealed Truth may be supplanted by a modern one.
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phil19034
Guest
Shelby sun, with all respect both of these marriages sound like at least ONE spouse was not honoring the vows. In the case of your sister, he left her. It doesn’t matter if she was naïve, ignorant, immature, etc; he left. Why he left, I don’t know. I don’t know if it was him alone or both of their faults, etc. But he didn’t honor his vow.
In regards to your co-worker, while he’s sticking around by not leaving, he’s committing adultery; hence he is NOT honoring his wedding vows. An “ungrateful, badgering” wife doesn’t justify him to break one of the Ten Commandments. Furthermore, one might be able to argue that the wife isn’t honoring her vows by not “honoring her husband.”
When someone isn’t facing what’s going on in their marriage, it usually means that in some way, at least one isn’t honoring their vows. Cheating (physically or mentally), being mean, not respecting the spouse, neglecting the spouse, etc… are all forms of “not honoring your vows.”
In your case, it takes two to have a valid SACRAMENTAL marriage. Just because you intended to marry for life and honor your vows doesn’t mean that your ex-husband didn’t have some impediment mentally or spiritually that interfered with the Sacrament. If deep down, he didn’t believe that marriage was forever or didn’t believe 100% in the vows; then it is possible that sacrament wasn’t valid. No one is saying that your marriage was legal or anything, but that the sacrament may not have taken hold. I doesn’t mean that you didn’t give your consent to marry. It doesn’t mean that your vows were not sincere. Your were. But PERHAPS your ex-husband’s were not. NOTE: I have no idea if you attempted to receive an annulment or not. If not, I personally suggest you do.
I will say a prayer for you and all others in this situation. Also, please say a prayer for me, as my marriage is rocky and it’s sometimes hard to keep our marriage on the right path. Marriage takes work and it take communication. But it also requires both to fully respect and honor their vows. In my personally situation, my wife doesn’t see any issue with divorce, which mentally gives her a “way out” if our marriage is too much work. Me… I married for life. Please pray for me that it remains the case.
Amen.
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Phemie
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Catholics are now divorcing at about the same rate as non-Catholics and ‘annulments’ are better known than they were in the early 60s.
Why is it surprising that an explosion in the divorce rate has resulted in more petitions for decrees of nullity? If they petition at least they care and want to regularize their situation. I’d say that’s cause for happiness.
We don’t have many weddings in my parish yet I’ve known two which were likely invalid at the time of the celebration. The first, the young couple said in the ceremony that they weren’t open to having children, yet the priest went on with the ceremony; the second, the cohabiting couple who had a young daughter got married after all hell broke loose when he was elected to office by younger members of the K of C. She left her husband and daughter for her lover less than 11 months after the wedding. How many more are like that?
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JimG
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Oh, it doesn’t surprise me that the explosion in the divorce rate leads to an explosion in annulments. What surprises me is the explosion in divorce rates to begin with. Growing up, I knew no one in my parish, my school, my neighborhood, Catholic or non-Catholic, with divorced parents. I never met a kid with divorced parents until I was out of school, and I’m including my friends in secular schools. People just didn’t seem to have lot of trouble making vows of lifelong marriage and meaning them and keeping them. Now they do.
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