Pope sacks Bishop

[Tantum_ergo]

Bishop Morris wasn’t proposing a change in discipline, he was proposing a change in doctrine.

Vindication for Bishop Morris is not possible.

Right.

It is the ‘ends justifying the means’ debacle again. If the ends I"sacraments for the people") are (imprroperly) judged to be more important than the means (attempting to ‘ordain’ either those who cannot be ordained (women), those who currently by discipline may not be ordained (married men) and finally, those already ‘ministers’ in churches which have SPLIT from the Catholic Church and who do not accept the beliefs of that Church), then one would be all for achieving ‘the ends’. But if the means themselves are improper, illicit, invalid, then trying to ‘justify’ them by a pretense that ONLY by such means will the wonderful, marvelous, ‘this is all we should focus on’ ends of ‘sacraments for the people’ be achieved is egregiously wrong. . .no matter how ‘well-intentioned’ we can HOPE the person arguing for such things might be.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Something is very wrong when an entire diocese has no vocations.

I would suspect that this Bishop, and far too many of the Priests he was overseeing, were straying from the fold, so to speak. If they are not teaching the Roman Catholic faith, but instead are promoting “The Church of Whatever Feels Good Now”, it is not at all strange that they have no vocations.

While I do support the ordination of married men, and i would love to see many laicisized Priests be allowed to function even though they have married, I would NEVER advocate that position as this Bishop did, in a public letter to his entire diocese.

He was NOT fired. He chose to resign, and he makes that clear in his resignation letter. He undoubtedly was given an opportunity to recant, but refused to do so. He chose to resign, before he was forced out.

Bishop’s are not protected from sin. Look at the Bishop of Santa Fe, who had a mistress, secretly married her, and was forced out of the church as a result. That was also a scandal to the people, and many of his flock publicly supported him.

Attendance dropped off for a while, but the vast majority of the people came back to the church.

So will these people in Australia.

Those that don’t we should pray for.

 

[Thingsey]

I am totally in favor of Bishops and Priest saying what they feel is right. There is a Maryknoll Priest threatened with excommunication for stating women should be ordained. This sounds as if the Pople is a dictator, no better than the other dictators in the World. There are not enough Priests and there should be women ordained, also married Priests. When Jesus was here it was all women who stood by him up to the end. The Apostels all fled and even lied about knowing Him. I totally agree with communicating with other religions. We are all going different roads but trying to reach the same end. We were taught by Jesus “Love one another as I have loved you.” Jesus loves everyone it is ego (Edging God Out) that causes all the problems in the World. The most important thing is love and tolerence. The Catholic Church needs to change or else they will lose more of its people.

 

[1holycatholic]

I am totally in favor of Bishops and Priest saying what they feel is right. There is a Maryknoll Priest threatened with excommunication for stating women should be ordained. This sounds as if the Pople is a dictator, no better than the other dictators in the World. There are not enough Priests and there should be women ordained, also married Priests. When Jesus was here it was all women who stood by him up to the end. The Apostels all fled and even lied about knowing Him. I totally agree with communicating with other religions. We are all going different roads but trying to reach the same end. We were taught by Jesus “Love one another as I have loved you.” Jesus loves everyone it is ego (Edging God Out) that causes all the problems in the World. The most important thing is love and tolerence. The Catholic Church needs to change or else they will lose more of its people.

The pope is not a dictator, he is a servant of the Gospel.

Women cannot be ordained.

The Church cannot change the deposit of faith.

 

[ANNE_2]

I am totally in favor of Bishops and Priest saying what they feel is right. There is a Maryknoll Priest threatened with excommunication for stating women should be ordained. This sounds as if the Pople is a dictator, no better than the other dictators in the World. There are not enough Priests and there should be women ordained, also married Priests. When Jesus was here it was all women who stood by him up to the end. The Apostels all fled and even lied about knowing Him. I totally agree with communicating with other religions. We are all going different roads but trying to reach the same end. We were taught by Jesus “Love one another as I have loved you.” Jesus loves everyone it is ego (Edging God Out) that causes all the problems in the World. The most important thing is love and tolerence. The Catholic Church needs to change or else they will lose more of its people.

Being totally in favor of a Bishop or Priest preaching heresy and/or schism to his Diocese Congregation?
That is strange for a “Catholic” to say.
(See post #5.)

Morris was not merely “talking” to other religions.

You are right that the women and John stayed at the foot the Cross.
Don’t you think that Jesus knew this would happen ?
Don’t you think that Jesus knew what He was doing?
Yet He picked all men for his Apostles.
And He gave His beloved Mother to John for mankind.
Do you think individual Bishops know better than Jesus?

Again, when a Bishop does not propogate the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” amongst his Priests and Laity, there is a problem with the Bishop.

 

[Tigg]

We were taught by Jesus “Love one another as I have loved you.” Jesus loves everyone it is ego (Edging God Out) that causes all the problems in the World. **The most important thing is love and tolerence. **The Catholic Church needs to change or else they will lose more of its people.

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen would blow your argument out of the water. Tolerance has nothing to do with true charity.

The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0014.html

 

[Tigg]

And if the Apostles were ordained at the Last Supper, how does one explain that Jesus sent them and many other disciples out to preach, teach and heal well before the Last Supper where the first ordination supposedly occurred?

The fullness of their commissioning was not complete until Pentecost. Jesus clearly told the apostles not to leave Jerusalem until the descent of the Holy Spirit when they would be guided to all truth. (John 16 and Acts 1, 1:5)

You are right, I don’t expect you to change my views or I yours. But there are others out there, people who read and actually think about these posts, and do their own reading and studying and meditating about these things, who might be influenced. Not to change their minds or to think like me, but to think for themselves. To seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which is there for all, not just for those who profess a particular church doctrine. To believe in and open themselves to Jesus and God the Father, not to just follow the rules and doctrines of a church as the way to the Realm of God.

We are not puppets, however your comments lead to some dangerous ground, or moral relativism. Personal choice and an improperly formed conscience and a lack of supernatural faith often leads to “my truth and private interpretation” resulting in the dilemma we now discuss. The Holy Spirit as Truth cannot of His own nature, lead us to any contradictions. The fact that there is disagreement, should tell you someone is in error. It makes little sense that the teachings of the Church Christ founded, which is guided by His Spirit, could be “re-established” on individual whim or understanding. Erroneous thought denies objective truth.

 

[Thingsey]

I now see why there are problems in the Catholic Church. It is run by “The Old Boys Club” and not unfortunately by the Holy Spirit. How long ago were we told if we ate meat on Friday we would go to HELL forever?!! How long ago was it a mortal sin to eat before Communion? Just to mention a few of the things the Catholic Church has changed to suit the situation. The" Old Boys Club" does not want women in the Priesthood, they like to keep their privilages for themselves. Take a good look at the Catholic Church. I am Catholic but my relationship is with Jesus. Thank God I do not go to Church because of any Priest. If I did, I would be sorely disappointed with what I see. I know of several Priests who are gay (which is fine with me) but when they have a partner then we have problems, and some of them do. Then, they get up on the Altar and preach to the people about sin and doing what is right and good? Open your eyes and see the changes that need to be made in the Church. When it suits the Church, they make the changes. There will be married Priests and there will be women Priests when the Church finds the older generations are dying off an the young people are not attending. Wait and see, it will change and it will be for better and the Church will be renewed and be much better for the changes that will come.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I now see why there are problems in the Catholic Church. It is run by “The Old Boys Club” and not unfortunately by the Holy Spirit. How long ago were we told if we ate meat on Friday we would go to HELL forever?!! How long ago was it a mortal sin to eat before Communion? Just to mention a few of the things the Catholic Church has changed to suit the situation. The" Old Boys Club" does not want women in the Priesthood, they like to keep their privilages for themselves. Take a good look at the Catholic Church. I am Catholic but my relationship is with Jesus. Thank God I do not go to Church because of any Priest. If I did, I would be sorely disappointed with what I see. I know of several Priests who are gay (which is fine with me) but when they have a partner then we have problems, and some of them do. Then, they get up on the Altar and preach to the people about sin and doing what is right and good? Open your eyes and see the changes that need to be made in the Church. When it suits the Church, they make the changes. There will be married Priests and there will be women Priests when the Church finds the older generations are dying off an the young people are not attending. Wait and see, it will change and it will be for better and the Church will be renewed and be much better for the changes that will come.

I’ll say a prayer for you. I think you need it. You’ve been duped into thinking all sorts of evils exist not in spite of the Church but ‘because’ of the Church, and thus you falsely think that if you ‘change’ certain things you’ll ‘make it better’. You won’t (because most of the things you want just aren’t valid) and because the Church is eternal and doesn’t fall victim to the whims of what ‘modern people’ think it ‘should do’.

The only thing I’ll address in your scattershot ‘charges’ is your ‘I’m a Catholic BUT my relationship is with Jesus.’

A-hem. As a woman and as a Catholic, my dear sir or ma’am, let me inform you that ALL of us have a relationship with Jesus. No ‘buts’ about it. Perhaps you didn’t mean to imply that the ‘rest’ of us as Catholics DON’T have a relationship with Jesus (Are you implying we put the Church in His place somehow? I hope not, that would be not just untrue but RUDE), but the way you worded it certainly came across that way.

 

[1holycatholic]

I now see why there are problems in the Catholic Church. It is run by “The Old Boys Club” and not unfortunately by the Holy Spirit. How long ago were we told if we ate meat on Friday we would go to HELL forever?!! How long ago was it a mortal sin to eat before Communion? Just to mention a few of the things the Catholic Church has changed to suit the situation. The" Old Boys Club" does not want women in the Priesthood, they like to keep their privilages for themselves. Take a good look at the Catholic Church. I am Catholic but my relationship is with Jesus. Thank God I do not go to Church because of any Priest. If I did, I would be sorely disappointed with what I see. I know of several Priests who are gay (which is fine with me) but when they have a partner then we have problems, and some of them do. Then, they get up on the Altar and preach to the people about sin and doing what is right and good? Open your eyes and see the changes that need to be made in the Church. When it suits the Church, they make the changes. There will be married Priests and there will be women Priests when the Church finds the older generations are dying off an the young people are not attending. Wait and see, it will change and it will be for better and the Church will be renewed and be much better for the changes that will come.

Women priests are not possible, so speculating on when an impossible thing will happen is rather pointless.

P.S. The Church is Christ.

 

[Corki]

There is a Maryknoll Priest threatened with excommunication for stating women should be ordained.

Just a point of clarification.

I believe you are referring to Father Bourgeois. He is not “threatened” with excommunication. He is in fact currently excommunicated (since 2008). This was not for “stating that women should be ordained” but for actually participating in a ceremony the attempted to ordain women. His order is proceeding with the process of removing him from the Maryknolls and the superior of the Maryknolls has indicated that he will also ask that Father Bourgeois be laicized.

 

[Tigg]

I am totally in favor of Bishops and Priest saying what they feel is right. There is a Maryknoll Priest threatened with excommunication for stating women should be ordained. This sounds as if the Pople is a dictator, no better than the other dictators in the World. There are not enough Priests and there should be women ordained, also married Priests.

I’ve always wondered how some in the Church can think they are righteous when defending sins of disobedience, pride and rebellion against that which God Himself has instituted.

 

[ANNE_2]

Thingsey -
Did you forget what Jesus said to the Peter ?

Mt 16:18-19
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Your outward disobedience and disrespect to Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II, is a disgrace - since you call yourself Catholic.
Your claim to have a relationship with Jesus against His Church is false. Jesus gave no such power to Thingsey to make up his/her own rules for the Catholic Church.
You are preaching heresy and schism.
Jesus did not chose women for his Apostles.

And you must not have read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” and its foot notes regarding eating meat. Nothing has changed regarding Canon Code.

CCC - " 2043 The fourth precept (“You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church”) ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts and help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart. "

Code of Canon Law 1249-1253
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM

I will close in again quoting the CCC -
CCC - " 1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct."

CCC - " 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits."

 

[Thingsey]

I can see you are all brainwashed. It is perfectly all right to question what is going on in our Church. We are not all led around by the nose. We have a right to question and any organization that does not allow its people to question is fearful that their little bubble will be busted. Its healthy to have to question but all of you on this forum seem to be afraid to talk about what might not be right in the Catholic Church and believe me there is a lot not right. By the way the Maryknoll Priest Father Bourgeois has not been excommunicated! He is living with the Maryknolls in GA. I personall spoke with the Order and was told thousands of people are writing and calling in on his behalf. They cannot keep up with the calls there are so many! I notice no one mentioned the gay Priests who are performing the Sacrements and having undercover partners? Believe me, I know of them and several people have gone from the Catholic Church simply because of this. Why is the Pope not coming down on those Priests?! Why is this not being check out as much as the Priests and Bishops who want women Priests? What about the sex scandle in the Church and the Pope who moved Cardinal Law from Boston to the Vatican to keep him out of jail for his part in moving those sick Priests around to other Parishes? He was about to be linched for his uncaring attitude to the hundreds plus people who were damaged forever by his actions. I actually dont blame the Priests because I believe they were sick but I do blame the hirarcy in the Church for their part. The Church is flawed by the people running it.

 

[Corki]

I can see you are all brainwashed. It is perfectly all right to question what is going on in our Church. We are not all led around by the nose. We have a right to question and any organization that does not allow its people to question is fearful that their little bubble will be busted. Its healthy to have to question but all of you on this forum seem to be afraid to talk about what might not be right in the Catholic Church and believe me there is a lot not right. By the way the Maryknoll Priest Father Bourgeois has not been excommunicated! He is living with the Maryknolls in GA. I personall spoke with the Order and was told thousands of people are writing and calling in on his behalf. They cannot keep up with the calls there are so many!

We are not brainwashed or being led around by the nose.

Of course, it is perfectly all right to question. But when you question, are given the answer and refuse to listen, it’s not healthy.

We talk about what is wrong in the Church here on CAF all the time. No one here is ignoring the wrongs that occur or the frailties of many of the Church’s leaders now and through time. Just look at some of the threads here.

As for Father Bourgeois, excommunication is not permanent. He may indeed have had his excommunication lifted by now. He was excommunicated in 2008 according to this source:

ncregister.com/blog/father_bourgeois_acknowledges_excommunication/

and updated just last month

ncregister.com/daily-news/father-bourgeois-i-cant-recant?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+NCRegisterDailyBlog+%40National+Catholic+RegisterA&utm

 

[1holycatholic]

I can see you are all brainwashed. It is perfectly all right to question what is going on in our Church. We are not all led around by the nose. We have a right to question and any organization that does not allow its people to question is fearful that their little bubble will be busted. Its healthy to have to question but all of you on this forum seem to be afraid to talk about what might not be right in the Catholic Church and believe me there is a lot not right. By the way the Maryknoll Priest Father Bourgeois has not been excommunicated! He is living with the Maryknolls in GA. I personall spoke with the Order and was told thousands of people are writing and calling in on his behalf. They cannot keep up with the calls there are so many! I notice no one mentioned the gay Priests who are performing the Sacrements and having undercover partners? Believe me, I know of them and several people have gone from the Catholic Church simply because of this. Why is the Pope not coming down on those Priests?! Why is this not being check out as much as the Priests and Bishops who want women Priests? What about the sex scandle in the Church and the Pope who moved Cardinal Law from Boston to the Vatican to keep him out of jail for his part in moving those sick Priests around to other Parishes? He was about to be linched for his uncaring attitude to the hundreds plus people who were damaged forever by his actions. I actually dont blame the Priests because I believe they were sick but I do blame the hirarcy in the Church for their part. The Church is flawed by the people running it.

Priest confirms excommunication; will keep urging women’s ordination
WASHINGTON – Maryknoll Father Roy Bourgeois has confirmed his excommunication from the Catholic Church but said he has not changed his view that women who are called to priesthood should be ordained.
…]
Sep 1, 2009
:coffeeread:

 

[Tigg]

I can see you are all brainwashed. It is perfectly all right to question what is going on in our Church.

If you will just look at some of these threads, you will see this is a forum where we do question and comment on the things going on in the church. The big difference you will see is most who post here - 1.) know Church teaching and cannot be fooled by those who try to suggest otherwise, 2.) are completely faithful to the teaching Magisterium and, 3.) love the Holy Father and their Catholic faith, despite the human problems we are encountering.

If you are here to bash the Catholic Church, you will get no support and most likely will be banned from the forum, but if you are here to respectfully question and debate and learn, then we welcome you.

 

[vsedriver]

I can see you are all brainwashed. It is perfectly all right to question what is going on in our Church. We are not all led around by the nose. We have a right to question and any organization that does not allow its people to question is fearful that their little bubble will be busted. Its healthy to have to question but all of you on this forum seem to be afraid to talk about what might not be right in the Catholic Church and believe me there is a lot not right.

What you call brainwashed, I call well educated. There are many on this forum who know exactly why the Church says what she says and does what she does.There is nothing wrong with questioning but the questioning ends once an answer has been given. To continue the questioning takes it to the level of disobedience. It has been my experience that those who question the Church’s doctrines and disciplines simply don’t want to accept the Church’s reasoning behind her decisions. The Church isn’t hiding anything. Any question you have will have an explanation, including Biblical support.

By the way the Maryknoll Priest Father Bourgeois has not been excommunicated! He is living with the Maryknolls in GA. I personall spoke with the Order and was told thousands of people are writing and calling in on his behalf. They cannot keep up with the calls there are so many!

I see he has been excommunicated. And popularity isn’t proof of righteousness.

I notice no one mentioned the gay Priests who are performing the Sacrements and having undercover partners? Believe me, I know of them and several people have gone from the Catholic Church simply because of this.

Sadly priests are sinners too. I’m sure that their bishop would appreciate knowing any details you may have of this behavior. Have you written to the bishop?

Why is the Pope not coming down on those Priests?!

The management of priests’ sinful behavior is the responsibility of the local bishop.

Why is this not being check out as much as the Priests and Bishops who want women Priests?

Teaching the truth of faith and morals is the responsibility of the Pope. The Pope deals with bishops, the bishops deal with priests.

What about the sex scandle in the Church and the Pope who moved Cardinal Law from Boston to the Vatican to keep him out of jail for his part in moving those sick Priests around to other Parishes?

If the law had enough evidence to convict Cardinal Law all they had to do was press charges. Italy accepts extradition. Sadly, the statutes of limitations ran out the majority of the abuse cases so the law didn’t want to get involved. Also sadly, we have the luxury of hindsight, and a view of child abuse that didn’t exist 40 to 60 years ago. The Catholic Church handled child abuse the same way everyone else was handling it back then, including schools and sports groups.

The Church is flawed by the people running it.

I think you have that backwards. The Church isn’t flawed but the people are because we are all sinners.

 

[sing4joy]

I’ve always wondered how some in the Church can think they are righteous when defending sins of disobedience, pride and rebellion against that which God Himself has instituted.

And it is those three sins that are at the root of the vocations “crisis”. I put crisis in quotes bcz it’s not God that has stopped calling, it’s people who have stopped responding. Disobedience, pride and rebellion do a lot to block thr movement of the Holy Spirit. Especially when it is the ordained members of the Church who are leading the way.

 

[Tigg]

From the article:

In contrast to some other provincial dioceses, the priest shortage has been exacerbated by Toowoomba’s appalling record over recent years in attracting virtually no new vocations.

If truth is not upheld nor taught, but sacrificed to the dissident opinions promulgated by some of the episcopate, there will be a destruction of the faith and no vocations. I just watched a video called “Spiritually Smart” and what was said is true. If we are open to Truth, (The Holy Spirit) our intellect is the guiding impetus which recognizes it (truth) and then persuades and convicts along with the supernatural gift of faith freely given by the same Spirit. They work hand in hand, and both are necessary for the preservation of belief.