Pope says Christians can work with atheists [CNAU]

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Whether he meant this or not, a simple google search on Pope Francis’ recent homily on doing good regardless of belief because we are all redeemed has generated much buzz. I have watched videos and seen headlines saying things like “atheists are okay according to the Pope” I heard one person say that these comments aren’t good for the business of promoting Catholicism. Another said, “what does it matter what I believe if we all go to heaven if we are good?” Personally I interpreted the Holy Father’s comments to mean that doing good gives us some common ground to dialog and that Christ died for the whole world even atheists. But I will say some of his comments made me nervous as I am starting RCIA this fall and have become convinced of the truth and importance of being Catholic. Many have interpreted this as - what does it matter - just be good. I love Pope Francis and pray for him. I was just wondering how others interpreted his homily.
 
A lot of people think all they have to do is be good. But what’s good enough? Picking up a bit of trash you find somewhere? Greeting your neighbors cheerfully each day, maybe put up with someone’s obnoxious behavior. But that would never be good enough in God’s eyes. I maybe be able to jump six inches straight up, and someone comes along and says, “Gee, that’s too bad. I can jump two feet. So I"m better than you so I get to go to heaven, and you can’t.” Only God can judge that.
 
I thought catholics believe that our goodness cannot save us apart from Gods grace? I would think that an atheist by the nature of denying Gods existence would be rejecting any saving grace, therefore nullifying the saving quality of his or her good deeds. I certainly agree that good works are a great meeting ground as Pope Francis said. We then have an opportunity on common ground to share Christ, but I think many misunderstood his comments to mean that ultimately it doesn’t matter what you believe if you do good. I hope he didn’t mean that. I think his track record shows that he has been misunderstood.
 
Almost_convert said:
I thought catholics believe that our goodness cannot save us apart from Gods grace? I would think that an atheist by the nature of denying Gods existence would be rejecting any saving grace, therefore nullifying the saving quality of his or her good deeds. I certainly agree that good works are a great meeting ground as Pope Francis said. We then have an opportunity on common ground to share Christ, but I think many misunderstood his comments to mean that ultimately it doesn’t matter what you believe if you do good. I hope he didn’t mean that. I think his track record shows that he has been misunderstood.
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We can’t know the mind of another. What of an atheist who was raised in a radically atheistic household, and who simply attempts to live a good life as best he knows it? Did this person reject God? Was God and the Catholic faith ever presented to him in a non-caricatured way? By following his conscience is he not accepting God, who writes his law onto every human heart?

The Catholic faith clearly has the fullness of truth, and the fullness of grace, and everything else is a more difficult path to salvation, but we need to be careful about drawing arbitrary lines. We should evangelize, while at the same time resisting the temptation of thinking that we know the mind of God or the mind of another person.
 
Almost_convert said:
I thought catholics believe that our goodness cannot save us apart from Gods grace? I would think that an atheist by the nature of denying Gods existence would be rejecting any saving grace, therefore nullifying the saving quality of his or her good deeds. I certainly agree that good works are a great meeting ground as Pope Francis said. We then have an opportunity on common ground to share Christ, but I think many misunderstood his comments to mean that ultimately it doesn’t matter what you believe if you do good. I hope he didn’t mean that. I think his track record shows that he has been misunderstood.
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Amen, surely everyone ‘has the potential’ to be saved, but whether or not they are, dependent upon them ‘confessing with their lips and believing in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord’.

Just because Christ gives us the gift of redemption, does not mean we are redeemed. Surely we have to say ‘thank you’ and receive that gift. 🙂
 
Absolutely we cannot know the mind of God but how can we say that rejecting his existence is somehow following his law written on our hearts. Check out Romans 1:19-23. I am not in any way saying that we can judge hearts and know minds but if a person actually rejects Gods existence than how will they be accepted by Him. Especially when you consider that even believers can fall from grace through mortal sin.
 
This was my response to someone inquiring into this issue earlier on another site:
So the Pope was like atheists can go to Heaven…
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What’s your opinion on that?
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It isn’t against Catholic belief that non-Catholics can get to heaven, so I would assume that includes all persons - including atheists. In Catholicism there is the physical Church and then there is the spiritual Church - the latter taking precedence, as it is the spiritual life of a person that is paramount. Because these two facets coincide with one another as God’s law, it is possible for a person to live a moral/Godly life without actually being a physical member of the Church; the problem, however, is that it is extremely difficult to do so without an accurate compass and source of the most powerful graces, which is what the physical Church is.

The key is in the concept of the “state of grace”. When one is in a “state of grace” it means that person’s soul isn’t stained with mortal sin - ie. the type of sin that will very likely allow one to go to hell. The state of grace is where the soul is compatible, worthy, and willing of living in God’s immediate presence (in heaven) whereas the lack of that state (due to mortal sin) causes incompatibility with God (and thus banishment to hell). Then there is also the fact that while Jesus’ sacrifice was offered for all of humanity (which is what Pope Francis was actually talking about) it is up to human beings to accept that offering. As human beings made in His image, we possess free will, and therefore God does not simply force things onto us. That being said, we are free to accept or reject God’s gifts, which is really the greatest determining factor in deciding whether or not one goes to heaven or to hell. God really does not judge us so much as we judge Him. If we become incompatible with Him then neither we nor He can accept living with the other, so there is always either a mutual acceptance or a mutual rejection by both parties. Therein it is possible for a non-Catholic, and even non-Christian to get to heaven, but it’s still treading thin ice.
 
snarflemike said:
The Catholic faith clearly has the fullness of truth, and the fullness of grace, and everything else is a more difficult path to salvation, but we need to be careful about drawing arbitrary lines. We should evangelize, while at the same time resisting the temptation of thinking that we know the mind of God or the mind of another person.
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First of all the path is always through Christ but I think you would agree to that - although clearly the church teaches that Gods grace doesn’t always follow the ordinary form (e.g. For remote tribes in the amazon cut off from civilization). What concerns me is where you say to be careful about drawing “arbitrary lines” how is the acceptance of Gods existence an arbitrary line? There is nothing arbitrary about that, it is foundational. It is the starting point. Atheism is never a starting point - it is facing the wrong direction at the starting line. I think what Pope Francis was saying is that common ground between atheists and Christians can’t be God since they reject Him. So common ground could be doing good. But ultimately to help turn them toward Christ
 
Almost_convert said:
First of all the path is always through Christ but I think you would agree to that - although clearly the church teaches that Gods grace doesn’t always follow the ordinary form (e.g. For remote tribes in the amazon cut off from civilization). What concerns me is where you say to be careful about drawing “arbitrary lines” how is the acceptance of Gods existence an arbitrary line? There is nothing arbitrary about that, it is foundational. It is the starting point. Atheism is never a starting point - it is facing the wrong direction at the starting line. I think what Pope Francis was saying is that common ground between atheists and Christians can’t be God since they reject Him. So common ground could be doing good. But ultimately to help turn them toward Christ
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Yes, certainly all who are saved are saved through Christ - there is no other way to salvation. But what is more real - intellectual assent to the existence of God, or turning one’s life in the direction God points one to? I don’t think entrance to heaven will be based on a theology exam.

I don’t claim to know how easy or hard it is for an atheist to be saved, but IF in their circumstances, their honest search for the truth leaves them as atheists who live what we would recognize as a good life, then what? If a person truly does the best with what they are given (1 talent instead of 10), can we say that heaven for that person is impossible?
 
Jesus redeemed ALL of us by dying for our sins. No amount of effort or good works or faith on our part could accomplish that. But, having this redemption is no guarantee of salvation. There are those in the world, this country who through no fault of their own do not know Jesus. Good works plays a vital role in their path to salvation. Continue with your journey by attending RCIA. Best move I ever made - make it yours also.
 
Almost_convert said:
Whether he meant this or not, a simple google search on Pope Francis’ recent homily on doing good regardless of belief because we are all redeemed has generated much buzz. I have watched videos and seen headlines saying things like “atheists are okay according to the Pope” I heard one person say that these comments aren’t good for the business of promoting Catholicism. Another said, “what does it matter what I believe if we all go to heaven if we are good?” Personally I interpreted the Holy Father’s comments to mean that doing good gives us some common ground to dialog and that Christ died for the whole world even atheists. But I will say some of his comments made me nervous as I am starting RCIA this fall and have become convinced of the truth and importance of being Catholic. Many have interpreted this as - what does it matter - just be good. I love Pope Francis and pray for him. I was just wondering how others interpreted his homily.
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I believe that St John of the Cross’s statement, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”, concisely sums up Catholic theology. However, to love perfectly, as we ought, is impossible without God, without grace. I suppose Pope Francis is telling us that God’s forgiveness and grace are available to all, even without a formal profession of faith, which, according to Matt 7:21-23 (“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven will enter”), as well as Matt 21:28-32 (the Parable of the Two Sons), can be nothing more than cheap talk anyway. And this can be why, in Matt 25:31-46, many are surprised to be judged worthy of the kingdom while others are surprised to find themselves outside of it, based on what they did during they’re lives. Actions speak louder than words so, maybe St James words in chap 2 of his letter, “I’ll show you my faith by my deeds”, apply here.
 
Thanks that helps - its just funny how media runs with stuff - like “look look the pope said we don’t even have to believe in God!” Ridiculous.
 
Belief in the existence of God per se won’t get you far. Heck Satan is a believer! Trusting in God and trying earnestly to do his will are what really matters. Simple intellectual knowledge of God’s existence with nothing else is not worth much. For sincere atheists with invincible ignorance, if they strive to listen to their conscience and basically obey natural law, they should be okay eternity-wise. In a perfect world, hell would not exist, natural death would be the end for those who died as enemies of God, only those who died in God’s friendship would be resurrected to live with him forever. I’d keep Satan and his friends alive until the end of time, then God could will them out of existence. God’ s system still works: you get a prize for good behaviour, while those who misbehaved simply die instead of suffering the worst ever kind of cruel fate imaginable.
 
Neildown said:
The key is in the concept of the “state of grace”. When one is in a “state of grace” it means that person’s soul isn’t stained with mortal sin - ie. the type of sin that will very likely allow one to go to hell.
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And the only way to be forgiven of mortal sin and be in a state of grace is 1) the Sacrament of Reconciliation and/or 2) Perfect Contrition.

Non-Catholics have to rely upon “Perfect Contrition.”

And what does the Catechism say about Perfect Contrition?

CCC 1492: “Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called “perfect” contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called “imperfect.””

So Perfect Contrition presupposes faith in God, and repentance towards God. An atheist can be as sorry as he wants for his sins, but if it’s not towards God, it’s not Perfect Contrition, and thus doesn’t forgive mortal sins.

We can’t judge anyone, and hopefully these “atheists” aren’t really atheists at all. I personally think atheists don’t exist, and that most if not all “atheists” are actually just repressed theists. Of course I can’t prove that.

But as Jesus said wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many enter through it, and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few find it… (Matthew 7:13-14).
 
I agree with this fully. I find it inspiring that the Pope is following in the footsteps of Christ by seeking to embrace those who differ from the Catholic Faith. I see a direct correlation between the words of the Pope and the efforts of Jesus to reach out to the Gentiles. Too often we are content to limit ourselves to being around those of like mind to us. How can we follow Jesus if we only love one another and not everyone as Jesus commanded us?

Matthew 5:46
“For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?”
 
KEP1983 said:
And the only way to be forgiven of mortal sin and be in a state of grace is 1) the Sacrament of Reconciliation and/or 2) Perfect Contrition.

Non-Catholics have to rely upon “Perfect Contrition.”

And what does the Catechism say about Perfect Contrition?

CCC 1492: “Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called “perfect” contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called “imperfect.””

So Perfect Contrition presupposes faith in God, and repentance towards God. An atheist can be as sorry as he wants for his sins, but if it’s not towards God, it’s not Perfect Contrition, and thus doesn’t forgive mortal sins.

We can’t judge anyone, and hopefully these “atheists” aren’t really atheists at all. I personally think atheists don’t exist, and that most if not all “atheists” are actually just repressed theists. Of course I can’t prove that.

But as Jesus said wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many enter through it, and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few find it… (Matthew 7:13-14).
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I think this post is closest to orthodox teaching of the church - it’s tempting to jump on the “wide is the gate to heaven” bandwagon - but it is just not what is taught by Jesus. He wills all to be saved but many will reject this grace. I do agree with this post and have said for years that I don’t believe there atheists truly exist (which could make an ironic although uncharitable bumper sticker). It’s sad but for many people they reject Christ because his teachings ask them to repent - to change their lives. Look at the rich man in Matthew 19 - he went away sad because Jesus asked him to let go of something he loved and follow him. It’s so easy to explain away why people reject God in terms of external causes (e.g. Not being taught, the church and hypocrisy, they thought atheism was true and then just tried to live according to conscience, etc.) but I think for a lot of people it’s just too much to follow God. We could find ways to explain how everyone goes to heaven because if they truly understood God they could never reject him and then we are in some strange reversal of John Calvin’s concept of irresistible grace. By the way this concept that atheists can die in their atheism and be accepted for just living right makes it actually harder for the Christian to reach heaven because the Christian must live by even higher standards. It seems like some of the posts above suggest that it’s easier to accidentally make it to heaven.
 
KEP1983 said:
And the only way to be forgiven of mortal sin and be in a state of grace is 1) the Sacrament of Reconciliation and/or 2) Perfect Contrition.

Non-Catholics have to rely upon “Perfect Contrition.”

And what does the Catechism say about Perfect Contrition?

CCC 1492: “Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called “perfect” contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called “imperfect.””
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Some Catholic teachings apply to those within the institutional Catholic Church.

For example, it is a grave sin to skip Mass on Sunday without a good reason. To knowingly and willingly do so puts one in the state of mortal sin. However, this regulation applies only to Catholics – not those outside the Church.

Likewise, for Catholics the two means of having mortal sin forgiven are the sacrament of Confession or Perfect Contrition (which includes the intent to go to Confession at the first opportunity). (CCC #1452 vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4D.HTM#29 )
One needs to be a Catholic to receive this Sacrament. Since neither of the 2 means are applicable to non-Catholics, and since the Church teaches that it is possible for non-Catholics to be saved, it must be presumed that God has other means of bestowing His sanctifying grace on those not fortunate enough to belong to the Catholic Church.
 
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