R
- Status
K
KathleenGee
Guest
In a certain sense, communism wanted to care for all people.
But first, remember Pope Pius XII was terribly fearful of it. He pretty much ran the Church during his pontificate where the situation of the world was horrific. He is the most calumniated person of the 20th century. I read the book put out by ‘Pave the Way’ the Jewish organization that went into the Vatican to study documents on him, and came out with the deepest and most profound respect for him. They said they found out elements of the Russian Orthodox Church was involved with calumniating him, the one associated with the government, and they went so far as to send two Romanian priests into the Vatican Library to get hold of such documents…as they knew he was very good…to doctor the documents.
The Romanian priests for some reason were unable to go forward with their bad deed…the holy angels protecting the truth of our believers? It is the Russian head, Hilarion, spelling?, who is opposing greater unity with the Latin Church vs Patriarch Krill. I wonder if it is because if they reunite with us their dirty linen will come out.
By using the word, communism, for me growing up in the Cold War, and seeing films of Russian children handing over their parents to punishment for having a bible in their home, and having them paraded as heroes down the street while onlookers saw them with fear and disgust, along with the millions executed…and the punishment of strong individuals who wanted to be self sufficient…note it is the small American businessman who is carrying the bulk of the transfer of wealth in this country…the pope’s imagery of words did not go too well with me.
I have read also some of Malachi Martin’s writings who also exposed the Lavendar Network in some of the highest rankings in the Church. My childhood was under the direction of the Jesuits but I never experienced anything. I did hear my grandmother be highly critical of new Jesuit who was into activist issues in the 70’s…and is in prison now.
Then Andrew Bourgaine…spelling…the fellow on CNN who travels to enjoy many countries’ indigenous food, has a documentary that is returning ongoing on his visit to Russia. He had his phone tapped into, he visited an apartment that was just like how people lived under the Soviet Union…multiple people in one dwelling and the only privacy they had was their own toilet, etc. He could not wait to get back here.
The very first time P Francis came out on the balcony as our new pope, I had profound resonance with his new name…because i think the Church needs to embrace a new penance and personal poverty as S. Francis did. But his expression and persona some how left me cold. I liked JPII immediately.
South America is different than here, their local theologies different, but they are more communal because they have a different type of economies…which are likewise, very unsettled and churning.
I think he is making too many statements now that are causing people to be disturbed. That is all I can say right now.
But first, remember Pope Pius XII was terribly fearful of it. He pretty much ran the Church during his pontificate where the situation of the world was horrific. He is the most calumniated person of the 20th century. I read the book put out by ‘Pave the Way’ the Jewish organization that went into the Vatican to study documents on him, and came out with the deepest and most profound respect for him. They said they found out elements of the Russian Orthodox Church was involved with calumniating him, the one associated with the government, and they went so far as to send two Romanian priests into the Vatican Library to get hold of such documents…as they knew he was very good…to doctor the documents.
The Romanian priests for some reason were unable to go forward with their bad deed…the holy angels protecting the truth of our believers? It is the Russian head, Hilarion, spelling?, who is opposing greater unity with the Latin Church vs Patriarch Krill. I wonder if it is because if they reunite with us their dirty linen will come out.
By using the word, communism, for me growing up in the Cold War, and seeing films of Russian children handing over their parents to punishment for having a bible in their home, and having them paraded as heroes down the street while onlookers saw them with fear and disgust, along with the millions executed…and the punishment of strong individuals who wanted to be self sufficient…note it is the small American businessman who is carrying the bulk of the transfer of wealth in this country…the pope’s imagery of words did not go too well with me.
I have read also some of Malachi Martin’s writings who also exposed the Lavendar Network in some of the highest rankings in the Church. My childhood was under the direction of the Jesuits but I never experienced anything. I did hear my grandmother be highly critical of new Jesuit who was into activist issues in the 70’s…and is in prison now.
Then Andrew Bourgaine…spelling…the fellow on CNN who travels to enjoy many countries’ indigenous food, has a documentary that is returning ongoing on his visit to Russia. He had his phone tapped into, he visited an apartment that was just like how people lived under the Soviet Union…multiple people in one dwelling and the only privacy they had was their own toilet, etc. He could not wait to get back here.
The very first time P Francis came out on the balcony as our new pope, I had profound resonance with his new name…because i think the Church needs to embrace a new penance and personal poverty as S. Francis did. But his expression and persona some how left me cold. I liked JPII immediately.
South America is different than here, their local theologies different, but they are more communal because they have a different type of economies…which are likewise, very unsettled and churning.
I think he is making too many statements now that are causing people to be disturbed. That is all I can say right now.
S
Seamus_L
Guest
I’m still a bit shocked that so few people seem to be upset over this. This statement was very wrong, and the fact that the Pope made it does not somehow justify it.
P
ProVobis
Guest
It looks like we’re talking past each other.
The simplest way I can explain the velocity of money is to have, say, 10 people sitting at a round table. They are all equal in this example; none has any savings or debt initially.
Person A gets an infusion of say, $10,000. He buys a service or product from person B with that $10,000. Person B has $10,000 which he can buy a product. Person C fulfills that need and now Person C has the $10,000 and so forth. Eventually Person A will be able to earn the $10,000 again. So what, you say? Nothing except to note that the faster this money gets circulated around the table the more money each one earns in a set amount of time, like a year. That’s how the velocity of money influences national gross product. Of course, if we infused $20,000 into another group, in theory everything else being equal, each of those would earn double of what each of the first group would earn.
Since we seem to be measuring wealth with income these days, I thought this example was important to show. It is true some will save some of this money in our example, but I’ll leave that to another chapter.
S
seakelp
Guest
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I see what you’re saying, now.
For most people, I suppose that wealth is measured by income. But that’s just the problem: less and less wealth is being allocated to labor, and more and more of it is being allocated to capital.
T
Thewetnoodle
Guest
communists are not Christians at all. I would rather be an imperialist and a capitalist than one of them. Isnt it ironic that they killed more members of the working class than anyone. Even Hitler in all his insanity did not murder nearly as many people.
communist-awareness.weebly.com/
communist-awareness.weebly.com/
T
Tony_the_mad
Guest
Too many people have forgotten our Christian roots on this board. The have forgotten that Christ came to preach to sinners and that he was closest not to the spiritually great but to the sinners the prostitutes and the thieves (as tax collectors usually were). Too many have forgotten that Jesus called one of the greatest persecutors of the Church to be one of the greatest of Apostles.
Where would the early Church be if it had the same idea about the Roman Empire that persecuted them as we do about those who persecute us? What if the Peter and Paul and Justin Martyr and Ignatius of Antioch had said there is no virtues in the Roman beliefs because they were an evil ideology founded on paganism? In Acts, Paul did not point out all of the pagan statues to the pagan Gods; rather he pointed out the dedication to the unknown God. Among all that evil he found the good, do we not have the strength and wisdom to do the same?
Do we have the strength that Paul had in his weakness that let the glory of God shine? Do we have the wisdom of Paul to be ruled by the folly of the cross? Or, do we trust in our own wisdom to know our enemy has no knowledge of the truth? Or do we trust in our own strength that we can defeat them through our superior arguments and economic system?
When I see the works of our Pope, I am reminded of his namesake who during the midst of the cruelty of the fifth Crusade ventured to meet the Sultan who led the Sunni Muslims the crusaders fought. St. Francis did not succeed in that endeavor but the Lord may have accomplished something even greater for Christianity through the humility of St. Francis. If we could only learn from him.
Where would the early Church be if it had the same idea about the Roman Empire that persecuted them as we do about those who persecute us? What if the Peter and Paul and Justin Martyr and Ignatius of Antioch had said there is no virtues in the Roman beliefs because they were an evil ideology founded on paganism? In Acts, Paul did not point out all of the pagan statues to the pagan Gods; rather he pointed out the dedication to the unknown God. Among all that evil he found the good, do we not have the strength and wisdom to do the same?
Do we have the strength that Paul had in his weakness that let the glory of God shine? Do we have the wisdom of Paul to be ruled by the folly of the cross? Or, do we trust in our own wisdom to know our enemy has no knowledge of the truth? Or do we trust in our own strength that we can defeat them through our superior arguments and economic system?
When I see the works of our Pope, I am reminded of his namesake who during the midst of the cruelty of the fifth Crusade ventured to meet the Sultan who led the Sunni Muslims the crusaders fought. St. Francis did not succeed in that endeavor but the Lord may have accomplished something even greater for Christianity through the humility of St. Francis. If we could only learn from him.
F
freeRadical
Guest
Communism is still a bad economic system for many reasons. If you want to know the Church’s thoughts on Communism, that is, an economic system in which the means of production are held in common and it’s thoughts on Socialism, that is, an economic system in which the means of production are owned by the State, you should check out Pope Leo’s Rerum Novarum.
Sigh people still think that there has been Communist counties in the world. USSR, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Angola, Mongolia, etc… the were never Communist in any way.
Please show me where communism has done these things you say?
Starving people to death, Gulags and executions have nothing to do with Communism, just as murdering people, rape, torture and genocide have nothing to do with with Christianity.
F
freeRadical
Guest
I mean that if the government didn’t discourage savings and investment through its tax code and monetary policy, then maybe the average person would own more capital and capital ownership would be more widespread amongst the populace.
F
freeRadical
Guest
But wealth and income are two very different things.
C
Cactus
Guest
I think I understand that the Holy Father is drawing an analogy to the most simplistic perceptions people have about communism and pointing out that the true realization of these lofty-sounding goals are to be found in the authentic practice of the Christian Faith. I find it problematic that he uses such imprecise language that gives the impression that he is a Leftist who doesn’t appreciate the life and death struggle that millions have suffered through to persevere in the Faith. I know that he is trying to reach out to the unevangelised who can’t fathom the big picture. I just tire of explaining to Evangelical friends that the pope is not leading us into the moral swamp that encompasses society now.
When it comes to economic systems, one has to realize that people are not equal. If a person is willing to work harder than another person, that person should be better off. If one person has more talent in a field that is in more demand than another person, that person should be better off. The only way to make every one equal economically is to make everyone equally miserable.
T
Thewetnoodle
Guest
The Popes have some interesting things to say about this:
Pius XI - “No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”
Socialism, fundamentally contrary to Christian truth
“… For Socialism, which could then be termed almost a single system and which maintained definite teachings reduced into one body of doctrine, has since then split chiefly into two sections, often opposing each other and even bitterly hostile, without either one however abandoning a position fundamentally contrary to Christian truth that was characteristic of Socialism.” (Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 111)
Socialism cannot be reconciled with Catholic Doctrine
“But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.” (Ibid. n. 117)
Catholic Socialism, a contradiction
“[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” (Ibid. n. 120)
“You are aware indeed, that the goal of this most iniquitous plot is to drive people to overthrow the entire order of human affairs and to draw them over to the wicked theories of this Socialism and Communism, by confusing them with perverted teachings.” (Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscum, December 8, 1849) -Pius IX
Pope Leo XIII
Socialists debase the natural union of man and woman and assail the right of property
“They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith’ (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life.” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)
SAINT PIUS X
The dream of re-shaping society will bring socialism
“But stranger still, alarming and saddening at the same time, are the audacity and frivolity of men who call themselves Catholics and dream of re-shaping society under such conditions, and of establishing on earth, over and beyond the pale of the Catholic Church, ‘the reign of love and justice’ … What are they going to produce? … A mere verbal and chimerical construction in which we shall see, glowing in a jumble, and in seductive confusion, the words Liberty, Justice, Fraternity, Love, Equality, and human exultation, all resting upon an ill-understood human dignity. It will be a tumultuous agitation, sterile for the end proposed, but which will benefit the less Utopian exploiters of the people. Yes, we can truly say that the Sillon, its eyes fixed on a chimera, brings Socialism in its train.” (Apostolic Letter Notre Charge Apostolique “Our Apostolic Mandate”] to the French Bishops, August 25, 1910, condemning the movement Le Sillon)
BENEDICT XV
The condemnation of socialism should never be forgotten
“It is not our intention here to repeat the arguments which clearly expose the errors of Socialism and of similar doctrines. Our predecessor, Leo XIII, most wisely did so in truly memorable Encyclicals; and you, Venerable Brethren, will take the greatest care that those grave precepts are never forgotten, but that whenever circumstances call for it, they should be clearly expounded and inculcated in Catholic associations and congresses, in sermons and in the Catholic press.” (Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, November 1, 1914, n. 13)
Pius XI - “No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”
Socialism, fundamentally contrary to Christian truth
“… For Socialism, which could then be termed almost a single system and which maintained definite teachings reduced into one body of doctrine, has since then split chiefly into two sections, often opposing each other and even bitterly hostile, without either one however abandoning a position fundamentally contrary to Christian truth that was characteristic of Socialism.” (Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 111)
Socialism cannot be reconciled with Catholic Doctrine
“But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.” (Ibid. n. 117)
Catholic Socialism, a contradiction
“[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” (Ibid. n. 120)
“You are aware indeed, that the goal of this most iniquitous plot is to drive people to overthrow the entire order of human affairs and to draw them over to the wicked theories of this Socialism and Communism, by confusing them with perverted teachings.” (Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscum, December 8, 1849) -Pius IX
Pope Leo XIII
Socialists debase the natural union of man and woman and assail the right of property
“They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith’ (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life.” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)
SAINT PIUS X
The dream of re-shaping society will bring socialism
“But stranger still, alarming and saddening at the same time, are the audacity and frivolity of men who call themselves Catholics and dream of re-shaping society under such conditions, and of establishing on earth, over and beyond the pale of the Catholic Church, ‘the reign of love and justice’ … What are they going to produce? … A mere verbal and chimerical construction in which we shall see, glowing in a jumble, and in seductive confusion, the words Liberty, Justice, Fraternity, Love, Equality, and human exultation, all resting upon an ill-understood human dignity. It will be a tumultuous agitation, sterile for the end proposed, but which will benefit the less Utopian exploiters of the people. Yes, we can truly say that the Sillon, its eyes fixed on a chimera, brings Socialism in its train.” (Apostolic Letter Notre Charge Apostolique “Our Apostolic Mandate”] to the French Bishops, August 25, 1910, condemning the movement Le Sillon)
BENEDICT XV
The condemnation of socialism should never be forgotten
“It is not our intention here to repeat the arguments which clearly expose the errors of Socialism and of similar doctrines. Our predecessor, Leo XIII, most wisely did so in truly memorable Encyclicals; and you, Venerable Brethren, will take the greatest care that those grave precepts are never forgotten, but that whenever circumstances call for it, they should be clearly expounded and inculcated in Catholic associations and congresses, in sermons and in the Catholic press.” (Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, November 1, 1914, n. 13)
T
TarkanAttila
Guest
Note that Pope Francis said communists are closet Christians - not the other way around.
At the base of socialism, like Buddhism, is a statement even we Christians agree about: there is unnecessary suffering in the world. And, to a large degree, like Buddhists and Christians, communists seek to alleviate suffering.
But what makes communism unacceptable is its SuperPelagianism, and its violence. Unfortunately, its Super-Pelagianism is radical, assuming from the start that the proletariat must rise above the bourgeoisie in order to balance out the world, and it assumes a classless, totally equal society is achievable by human means.
Naturally, we should disagree with these two sentiments, first because we were made for God, not for earth, and second because free will can and will destroy any purely human institution eventually. How many times has the map of Europe been wiped clean?
Communists want to end suffering and bring Heaven to all men. The mistake any communist makes, however, is that men can do it alone, or primarily alone. No Christian can believe this to be true. Nor can they believe the rich are pitted against the poor, or are the enemies of society.
At the base of socialism, like Buddhism, is a statement even we Christians agree about: there is unnecessary suffering in the world. And, to a large degree, like Buddhists and Christians, communists seek to alleviate suffering.
But what makes communism unacceptable is its SuperPelagianism, and its violence. Unfortunately, its Super-Pelagianism is radical, assuming from the start that the proletariat must rise above the bourgeoisie in order to balance out the world, and it assumes a classless, totally equal society is achievable by human means.
Naturally, we should disagree with these two sentiments, first because we were made for God, not for earth, and second because free will can and will destroy any purely human institution eventually. How many times has the map of Europe been wiped clean?
Communists want to end suffering and bring Heaven to all men. The mistake any communist makes, however, is that men can do it alone, or primarily alone. No Christian can believe this to be true. Nor can they believe the rich are pitted against the poor, or are the enemies of society.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Tarkan, true to a certain degree but in practice, and ‘religion is the opium of the people’, how power was practiced by communist leaders…think also of Mao Tse Tung and the sordid life he lived, worst than Stalin or Hitler.
The young people today have grown up totally ignorant of communism, not realizing it killed more people than that of the Naziis.
The other key component of communism is disinformation. The Bolsheviks got involved with the Muslim Brotherhood during the 1930’s, and we see alot of disinformation coming from the Middle East…albeit, from all sources there in conflict with each other.
What is so good about truth is that it unites people whereas power divides, and as JPII said, when power comes in the first casualty is ‘TRUTH’.
I continue to be disturbed by P Francis’ comment. I have read his statement in context of his talk, but still, for us, it makes me pull back, and he is a most educated person.
The young people today have grown up totally ignorant of communism, not realizing it killed more people than that of the Naziis.
The other key component of communism is disinformation. The Bolsheviks got involved with the Muslim Brotherhood during the 1930’s, and we see alot of disinformation coming from the Middle East…albeit, from all sources there in conflict with each other.
What is so good about truth is that it unites people whereas power divides, and as JPII said, when power comes in the first casualty is ‘TRUTH’.
I continue to be disturbed by P Francis’ comment. I have read his statement in context of his talk, but still, for us, it makes me pull back, and he is a most educated person.
S
Seamus_L
Guest
What makes the Pope’s comments so offensive, is that no where in his statement is Communism condemned as being evil. A poorly educated individual could read this and conclude that Francis is saying “Communists are basically well intended people”.
J
J_Peterson
Guest
Most of them are well intended people. I’ve never met a Stalin in my life but I have met kind people who sacrafice their time and in some cases their whole life for the foolish idea that people deserve food, shelter, clothing, ect.
L
LongingSoul
Guest
Karl Marx’s interpretation of the communist ideal was certainly bad news, but way back in the 16th century, Thomas More was expressing an idyllic view of the the concept of communal sharing as a civil model in Utopia. It is a thought that has thoroughly Christian roots detached from other ideologies and agendas.
T
TarkanAttila
Guest
But you see that’s partially my point; communism considers religion, and God, to be unnecessary to its ends. It does not realise that religion is really the only thing that can help it to its ends, not as a mere opiate, but as the pillar and ground of it.
That’s unfortunate, because I don’t think - I admit ignorance, this is merely my opinion - lying to people through false information and false propaganda is intrinsic to communism. It’s not intrinsic to the republic, and yet we have been lied to and had truths hidden from us by our government. Yet I don’t think the republic (as a type of government) flawed for that reason.
Of course, the case has been made that is why religion came into existence - to take power over other people using convenient lies. I don’t buy that for one second. And I’m not sure communism came into existence solely for that reason, either. I don’t doubt Satan and/or his minions were having fun with this one.
As an aside, I don’t understand why power is such a magnet to people. Pleasure makes more sense. And even then, when you really think about it, you can’t take either of those things with you when you die. No religion or philosophy has ever been so stupid as to say power in this world, pleasure in this world, follows you to the next.
At least, I hope to God no one seriously believes that.
As someone who tries to see the good in others, having seen his disgust with liberation theology, and his otherwise relative orthodoxy (which is very strong AFAWK), I think you are making Mount Everest out of a molehill.
T
Thewetnoodle
Guest
- Status