Pope says condoms sometimes permissible to stop AIDS

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I can see that you are trying to explain/justify the Pope’s response. Yet, there is no getting around his words. He basically affirmed the notion that in order to protect from infection condom use might be a morally acceptable practice.

Im not sure if this is even the pope’s official response. But the title of the article says completely otherwise to the actual content according to how im reading it. Im gonna give it another look and make sure.
 
jerryson said:
You obviously fail to understand the definition of the word “gift”
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No, we just disagree. I feel a life received is always a gift. Now, some women cannot look upon a child from a rape as a gift (understable too), so they put the baby up for adoption, other women kill the child through abortion.

The adoptive parents, not having the scars of the rape, certainly look upon their adopted child as a gift.
 
HCC said:
I ask this in all seriousness with no note of cynicism…am I the only one who sees this as a step in the wrong direction? Doesn’t this sort of undermine the moral authority of the Catholic Church?
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Yes absolutely. If this is true, I will never trust this pope again. Go ahead all those who worship popes, go after me. You couldn’t hurt me more than this news.

Annie
 
Annie39 said:
Yes absolutely. If this is true, I will never trust this pope again. Go ahead all those who worship popes, go after me. You couldn’t hurt me more than this news.

Annie
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I understand your concern, but you must know you go too far.
 
irishpatrick said:
No, we just disagree. I feel a life received is always a gift. Now, some women cannot look upon a child from a rape as a gift (understable too), so they put the baby up for adoption, other women kill the child through abortion.

The adoptive parents, not having the scars of the rape, certainly look upon their adopted child as a gift.
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I agree with these
 
Chukarrushe said:
Sophistry at it’s worst. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY what the author states in his summary of Pope Benedict’s words and then read carefully what the pope actually says.

Article writer says this “While broadly defending traditional Catholic teaching against artificial birth control, Benedict also suggests that in some limited instances the use of a condom might be morally defensible.”

Pope Benedict actually says is this -
“In this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality,” the pope says."

Is the pope really saying that at some times it IS morally defensible? NO.
Instead what the pope is stating is that in these people who are doing sinful acts their are good intentions. In this case he is simply stating that people and prostitutes involved in disordered sexual relations have the good intention in trying to prevent infection. Never does he say the use of the condom might be morally defensible - all he says is that the intention of preventing infection is basically a sign of hope; that it is a sign that there is care of the well being of others and perhaps the possibility of being converted more and more into the truth of the catholic faith.
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This is probably the best explanation by far of the actual intent of B16’s quote. However, part of me wonders if perhaps he just shouldn’t have said anything at all. I feel like the damage being done by the media far outweighs the benefits of his message, and I’m sure that His Holiness is thinking something similar now.
 
ishnianqueen said:
This is probably the best explanation by far of the actual intent of B16’s quote. However, part of me wonders if perhaps he just shouldn’t have said anything at all. I feel like the damage being done by the media far outweighs the benefits of his message, and I’m sure that His Holiness is thinking something similar now.
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This is not just about the media…many Catholics are wondering too…
 
ishnianqueen said:
I feel like the damage being done by the media far outweighs the benefits of his message, and I’m sure that His Holiness is thinking something similar now.
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I look at it differently. If CNN, Fox, and others are all in a frenzy now, that means more discussion, and more opportunity to put the Catholic teaching out there. Now, whether the secular media intended it or not, the Pope will be heard again, the Catholic Church will be heard, and the teachings of Theology of the Body will reach more people.
 
Originally Posted by Chukarrushe View Post
Sophistry at it’s worst. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY what the author states in his summary of Pope Benedict’s words and then read carefully what the pope actually says.
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Article writer says this “While broadly defending traditional Catholic teaching against artificial birth control, Benedict also suggests that in some limited instances the use of a condom might be morally defensible.”
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Pope Benedict actually says is this -
“In this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality,” the pope says."
Click to expand...
Is the pope really saying that at some times it IS morally defensible? NO.
Instead what the pope is stating is that in these people who are doing sinful acts their are good intentions. In this case he is simply stating that people and prostitutes involved in disordered sexual relations have the good intention in trying to prevent infection. Never does he say the use of the condom might be morally defensible - all he says is that the intention of preventing infection is basically a sign of hope; that it is a sign that there is care of the well being of others and perhaps the possibility of being converted more and more into the truth of the catholic faith.
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Yes I agree this is a good explanation…in that he’s discussing intent. I look at the argument from a linear fashion.

For example if events were to be carried out in this order, sequentially:

Begin homosexual activity —> wear condom (to prevent infection of AIDS/HIV) —> end of activity

The Pope’s argument enters into * the middle* because if the act is already taking place or about to, than one can assume responsibility after having decided to engage in the activity and wear a condom. Therefore yes, the person’s intent from that point on can be admirable.

But many would argue that because engaging in homosexual activity is already deemed a sin by the Catholic church, that no such action should have ever taken place, therefore the use or lack of use of condoms is irrelevant!

So the question is…can one look at the sequence of events and condone one part of the event and yet condemn the other? Can it be separated thusly? Can intent/good behavior exhibited during one part of the equation be considered worthwhile or estimable, while the rest of the behavior is deemed bad or immoral?

Is it simply a matter of black and white…or are there grey areas? Can one isolate a part from the whole?

This I don’t know…but I do understand the complexities of this issue. Hmmmm…:hmmm:
 
News flash: The pope did not say it would be “okay to sin.” :nope:

In the case of male (homosexual) prostitution, the use of a condom is not part of what makes the behavior immoral. The disordered act itself is the problem. In other words, the use of a condom does not add to the sin, as it’s not being used as a contraceptive.

This is in contrast to the case of female (heterosexual) prostitution, where using a condom would add another sin – that of contraception – to the grave violation of chastity. But this is not what was being discussed here.

So:
  1. Use of condoms by a male homosexual prostitute does not add to the sin, as it has no contraceptive aspect.
BUT
  1. The Holy Father believes that condoms are not a real or moral solution to the problem of HIV/AIDS infection.
NONETHELESS,
  1. If an individual male homosexual prostitute chooses to use a condom, with the intent of preventing infection in others, this might be a positive sign, i.e. that he is starting to develop a faint glimmer of conscience by caring more about the well-being of others. It might be a first step on the journey toward conversion.
So, as Catholics, we’re not going to raise moral objections to his decision to use a condom, per se. This is what the Holy Father was saying.

But the other stuff is still gravely sinful. We need to pray for these people, whose sins “cry out to heaven.”

Hope that helps someone.
 
BlueSprite said:
Yes I agree this is a good explanation…in that he’s discussing intent. I look at the argument from a linear fashion.

For example if events were to be carried out in this order, sequentially:

Begin homosexual activity —> wear condom (to prevent infection of AIDS/HIV) —> end of activity

The Pope’s argument enters into * the middle* because if the act is already taking place or about to, than one can assume responsibility after having decided to engage in the activity and wear a condom. Therefore yes, the person’s intent from that point on can be admirable.

But many would argue that because engaging in homosexual activity is already deemed a sin by the Catholic church, that no such action should have ever taken place, therefore the use or lack of use of condoms is irrelevant!

So the question is…can one look at the sequence of events and condone one part of the event and yet condemn the other? Can it be separated thusly? Can intent/good behavior exhibited during one part of the equation be considered worthwhile or estimable, while the rest of the behavior is deemed bad or immoral?

Is it simply a matter of black and white…or are there grey areas? Can one isolate a part from the whole?

This I don’t know…but I do understand the complexities of this issue. Hmmmm…:hmmm:
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The pope’s only moral option would to have said that the immoral act should not be taken in the first. How on earth can there be anything moral about using a condom in commission of a mortal sin? This is the twilight zone.

Annie
 
The Church is finally entering the 21st century and this announcement by our Pope Benedict can only be a good start and a good thing. Good for him, good for all Catholics. 👍
 
Annie39 said:
The pope’s only moral option would to have said that the immoral act should not be taken in the first. How on earth can there be anything moral about using a condom in commission of a mortal sin? This is the twilight zone.

Annie
In the case of homosexual acts, the use of a condom is not contraceptive; thus, it does not add to the sin. (See my previous post, or the Janet Smith link that was posted earlier.)

Of course, there is still mortal sin involved. But it wouldn’t make much sense for us to condemn this person’s use of a condom per se.
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Chukarrushe said:
Sophistry at it’s worst. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY what the author states in his summary of Pope Benedict’s words and then read carefully what the pope actually says.

Article writer says this “While broadly defending traditional Catholic teaching against artificial birth control, Benedict also suggests that in some limited instances the use of a condom might be morally defensible.”

Pope Benedict actually says is this -
“In this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality,” the pope says."

Is the pope really saying that at some times it IS morally defensible? NO.
Instead what the pope is stating is that in these people who are doing sinful acts their are good intentions. In this case he is simply stating that people and prostitutes involved in disordered sexual relations have the good intention in trying to prevent infection. Never does he say the use of the condom might be morally defensible - all he says is that the intention of preventing infection is basically a sign of hope; that it is a sign that there is care of the well being of others and perhaps the possibility of being converted more and more into the truth of the catholic faith.

READ Abyssinia’s excerpt, thank you for that
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Please read this again and again if you are catholic.

Br. Paul
 
maryceleste said:
Can you explain further?
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I think of Africa and the scourge that AIDS is on that continent and I think about Church resistance to the use of condoms as a prevention against that affliction, and can only say that the Pope is doing right by confrontng the realities of some of the horrors so many Africans must cope with. That is good news, IMO, for all Catholics.
 
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