Pope says favors celibacy for priests but door open to change

[McCall1981]

No, I am fully aware of the differences. I didn’t bring up anything about what was doctrine, dogma, or disciple. You think it would be a bad idea, so you think you know better than those in the Church that are actual priests?

I can see your disagreement, but the Church needs priests. I think married priest have something to offer the Church.

I agree with the existing discipline on celibacy, you disagree with the existing discipline of celibacy. Wouldn’t that mean you are claiming to know better than those in the Church?

I hope the celibacy discipline does not change, and I don’t think it will, but since it is “just” a discipline, it is not a make or break issue either way.

 

[shelby_sun]

I agree with the existing discipline on celibacy, you disagree with the existing discipline of celibacy. Wouldn’t that mean you are claiming to know better than those in the Church?

I hope the celibacy discipline does not change, and I don’t think it will, but since it is “just” a discipline, it is not a make or break issue either way.

Like I said, there are already married priest fully serving in the Catholic Church. My parish is one of the biggest parishes in a very large city, not some small town parish of 500 people. There might not be many, but they are out there serving and married with children. So I am not really going going against the church.

 

[Tigg]

In typical fashion the lines are drawn and not surprisingly the world cannot bear to think men be denied sex and/or marriage as if it is beyond the pale or a sacrifice too great to be considered. Celibacy is a disciple that is a true contradiction to the modern world.

So the propaganda continues (in light of our new and even greater sexual freedom) that celibacy somehow makes for an incomplete human being. What these proponents neglect to say though, are what superior qualifications a married man would bring that single and holy men committed entirely to God do not? Astounding really, that the spiritual benefit of celibacy is always left out of the equation in a calling whose authentic characteristic is entirely spiritual.

 

[shelby_sun]

In typical fashion the lines are drawn and not surprisingly the world cannot bear to think men be denied sex and/or marriage as if it is beyond the pale or a sacrifice too great to be considered. Celibacy is a disciple that is a true contradiction to the modern world.

So the propaganda continues (in light of our new and even greater sexual freedom) that celibacy somehow makes for an incomplete human being. What these proponents neglect to say though, is what superior qualifications a married man would bring that single and holy men committed entirely to God do not? Astounding really, that the spiritual good of celibacy is always left out of the equation in a calling whose authentic characteristic is entirely spiritual.

So are you saying only celibate men are worthy of fully serving God and being holy? Celibacy doesn’t make one incomplete, but it doesn’t make one superior either. To some it is a sacrifice to others it just isn’t.

 

[J_Peterson]

So are you saying only celibate men are worthy of fully serving God and being holy? Celibacy doesn’t make one incomplete, but it doesn’t make one superior either. To some it is a sacrifice to others it just isn’t.

I too get the feeling that this is the mindset of many, including the Church itself. How many cannonized Saints were sexually active at the time of their death? The first that comes to mind is Thomas More but he was a martyr and may not have been cannonized otherwise (I love Thomas More so I like to think he would have been anyway). Are there others (maybe 1st/2nd Century Saints but I don’t know many)?

 

[christus_vincit]

So are you saying only celibate men are worthy of fully serving God and being holy? Celibacy doesn’t make one incomplete, but it doesn’t make one superior either. To some it is a sacrifice to others it just isn’t.

No. But Christ speaks very highly of those who “make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God”. St. Paul also favors celibacy. The Church has always lauded celibacy and virginity.

So it seems that if we look at Scripture and the traditions of the Church we see a trend in which celibacy, abstinence, and virginity are highly praised. What does this all mean? It means that God desires to see these states of life practiced by those called to them. And right now, a life of celibacy (in the vast majority of cases) is demanded of those called to the priesthood.

 

[christus_vincit]

I too get the feeling that this is the mindset of many, including the Church itself. How many cannonized Saints were sexually active at the time of their death? The first that comes to mind is Thomas More but he was a martyr and may not have been cannonized otherwise (I love Thomas More so I like to think he would have been anyway). Are there others (maybe 1st/2nd Century Saints but I don’t know many)?

It seems that you are taking the wrong approach to this. The Church doesn’t make saints - God does. So if it is revealed to the Church that certain individuals are saints, the Church takes the steps to formally canonize them. So if we see a trend that not many saints were sexually active at the time of the death, shouldn’t we infer from this that those saints were obviously living lives pleasing to God? Can we not draw a connection between the fact that they abstained from sexual indulgences and their sainthood?

 

[RyanBlack]

It seems that you are taking the wrong approach to this. The Church doesn’t make saints - God does. So if it is revealed to the Church that certain individuals are saints, the Church takes the steps to formally canonize them. So if we see a trend that not many saints were sexually active at the time of the death, shouldn’t we infer from this that those saints were obviously living lives pleasing to God? Can we not draw a connection between the fact that they abstained from sexual indulgences and their sainthood?

Perhaps. We might also consider the possibility that being free from the responsibilities of family life–which can be quite overwhelming–is more conducive to holiness.

 

[Holly3278]

I have a feeling that celibacy for priests will remain. One thing that we have to remember with this issue though is that celibacy is a discipline which can be changed. It is not a doctrine.

 

[Tigg]

shelby sun;12038558:

So are you saying only celibate men are worthy of fully serving God and being holy? Celibacy doesn’t make one incomplete, but it doesn’t make one superior either. To some it is a sacrifice to others it just isn’t.

I too get the feeling that this is the mindset of many, including the Church itself. How many cannonized Saints were sexually active at the time of their death? The first that comes to mind is Thomas More but he was a martyr and may not have been cannonized otherwise (I love Thomas More so I like to think he would have been anyway). Are there others (maybe 1st/2nd Century Saints but I don’t know many)?

Why would it be thought that by extolling the virtues of celibacy that would automatically and in some manner denigrate marriage? Read “Theology of the Body” to understand how the Church praises conjugal love.

THIS EXPLAINS IT:

No. But Christ speaks very highly of those who “make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God”. St. Paul also favors celibacy. The Church has always lauded celibacy and virginity.

So it seems that if we look at Scripture and the traditions of the Church we see a trend in which celibacy, abstinence, and virginity are highly praised. What does this all mean? It means that God desires to see these states of life practiced by those called to them. And right now, a life of celibacy (in the vast majority of cases) is demanded of those called to the priesthood.

Thank you for this!

Also, when a married priest served in the temple in the OT, he observed continence. St. Jerome (4th century) is quoted as saying that clerics, “even though they may have wives, cease to be husbands.” It has always been understood that the *characteristic *of celibacy itself, brings great spiritual riches especially to a vocation that necessarily practices self-sacrifice.

 

[shelby_sun]

No. But Christ speaks very highly of those who “make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God”. St. Paul also favors celibacy. The Church has always lauded celibacy and virginity.

So it seems that if we look at Scripture and the traditions of the Church we see a trend in which celibacy, abstinence, and virginity are highly praised. What does this all mean? It means that God desires to see these states of life practiced by those called to them. And right now, a life of celibacy (in the vast majority of cases) is demanded of those called to the priesthood.

Yes, it is for right now, but seeing as the Church has made concessions with a few married priests,it is not surprising to hear the Pope open to the discussion. He better than anyone knows the state of the Church’s needs.

As far as holiness goes, IMO it don’t think celibacy makes one more holy. There are many more opportunities for married people with children to have there faith challenged. So a priest that understands that and remains true to his faith would be a very holy priest. For example, when someone hurts your child all sorts of uncharitable feeling boil up in parents. I certainly have not handle some of those situation well in the past, but if a married priest could be holy through that, I want him at my parish.

 

[christus_vincit]

Yes, it is for right now, but seeing as the Church has made concessions with a few married priests,it is not surprising to hear the Pope open to the discussion. He better than anyone knows the state of the Church’s needs.

As far as holiness goes, IMO it don’t think celibacy makes one more holy. There are many more opportunities for married people with children to have there faith challenged. So a priest that understands that and remains true to his faith would be a very holy priest. For example, when someone hurts your child all sorts of uncharitable feeling boil up in parents. I certainly have not handle some of those situation well in the past, but if a married priest could be holy through that, I want him at my parish.

So you are saying holiness is relative to the amount of evil we are exposed to? As if holiness needs to be proven and forged by how we overcome difficult situations? I don’t believe that’s how God operates. Holiness is simply to be “set apart” for God. A priest is called to be a shepherd of the people of God. That is his primary function. His “children” are his parishioners, because he is acting in the person of Christ who is the spouse of the Church. Now if you add blood-related family into the mix, you have a priest who must dedicate his time taking his son to soccer practice when he could have been in the confessional, or visiting the home-bound. You have a priest who can’t give last rites because he is taking his wife to an anniversary dinner. He has to balance two hefty obligations.

I would rather a priest be able to dedicate his ENTIRE life to the people of God, rather than one who has to balance his parish with his family. Just as, if I were a woman, I would desire that my husband dedicated his life to his family, without the added strain of carrying out his priestly functions. Both practically and theologically I don’t see any convincing reason why the requirement of celibacy should be done away with.

 

[J_Peterson]

It seems that you are taking the wrong approach to this. The Church doesn’t make saints - God does. So if it is revealed to the Church that certain individuals are saints, the Church takes the steps to formally canonize them. So if we see a trend that not many saints were sexually active at the time of the death, shouldn’t we infer from this that those saints were obviously living lives pleasing to God? Can we not draw a connection between the fact that they abstained from sexual indulgences and their sainthood?

I realize that, that’s why I used the word cannonized. To me it seems there is this obsession with sex, or more specifically abstaining from sex. As an example, I was telling my fiance about St. Catherine of Genoa and how after her conversion experience she lived with her husband as brother and sister. She asked why that was important to mention they didn’t have sex. I coulnd’t give her an answer. Sex and marriage go together like water and life, why would not having sex with her lawful husband make her a more holy person? I am not making a judgement against her, she was a very holy person and her writing on purgatory influenced my thinking way more than most authors. It’s just confusing to me, it feels like the sexually active are 2nd class.

If it weren’t for non-celebates there wouldn’t be any celebates. Does having sex make it less likely that you will get into heaven or does it simply prevent the Church from recognizing that a person is in fact in heaven?

(sorry for any spelling errors)

 

[shelby_sun]

So you are saying holiness is relative to the amount of evil we are exposed to? As if holiness needs to be proven and forged by how we overcome difficult situations? I don’t believe that’s how God operates. Holiness is simply to be “set apart” for God. A priest is called to be a shepherd of the people of God. That is his primary function. His “children” are his parishioners, because he is acting in the person of Christ who is the spouse of the Church. Now if you add blood-related family into the mix, you have a priest who must dedicate his time taking his son to soccer practice when he could have been in the confessional, or visiting the home-bound. You have a priest who can’t give last rites because he is taking his wife to an anniversary dinner. He has to balance two hefty obligations.

I would rather a priest be able to dedicate his ENTIRE life to the people of God, rather than one who has to balance his parish with his family. Just as, if I were a woman, I would desire that my husband dedicated his life to his family, without the added strain of carrying out his priestly functions. Both practically and theologically I don’t see any convincing reason why the requirement of celibacy should be done away with.

I don’t know. I would think it would be easier to be holy and faithful to live out ones life around very few people or temptations in a great deal of prayer, over facing great temptation day after day everywhere you turn.

As for balancing life a married priest doesn’t do that anymore than many married deacon. The wives know they must handle more things in marriage, just like husbands that travel a great deal. The children learn that it is a part of their life. It seems to work just fine for the married priest at our parish and I think people appreciate the he has personal experience in marriage and raising children. It certainly hasn’t negativity after anyone at our church. No one care that he has been celibate, you can have your opinion.

 

[Tigg]

To me it seems there is this obsession with sex, or more specifically abstaining from sex.

I think you are speaking of chastity here and the Church is quite clear that it must be practiced by all the baptized, including those in the married state:

**2339 ** Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.126 "Man’s dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end.

**2349 ** People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."136 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

We are all called to holiness regardless our state in life, which must include self mortification, penance and sacrifice. And this is what “sticks in the craw” to the worldly, especially in terms of sexual abstinence.

 

[josethomas]

Being celibate is a pre requisite for being a man for others. If Gospel values are to be practised it is better to be celibate. That is how celibate priesthood evolved. If a person wants to be a man for his wife or any other woman for that matter, it is better for him to leave priesthood and stop corrupting the catholic fellowship. As regards allowing married men to become priests, it is totally unwarrranted as it is quite impossible. When Jesus told that a man should leave His family to become his true follower He meant it. If some apostles were married the reason is that they came to know of Jesus after marriage and not before. A catholic is supposed to encounter Jesus before becoming married. Let Holy Mary Ever Virgin pray for us sinners that error will not creep in at the behest of modernity.

Jose Thomas

 

[GEddie]

“Sexually active at the time of death” already takes in a small minority of human life, because it requires that someone dies relatively young and in good health; widowhood or widowerhood, or prolonged illness would preclude “sexually active.”

From this small cohort abstract the far smaller contingent who qualify for canonization, and it is no surprise whatsoever that very few saints were “sexually active at the time of death.”

That of course says nothing about the relative merits of celibacy versus marriage. Most incorrupts are female bodies. Does that imply that males are intrinsically less holy?

ICXC NIKA.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I pray that they open the priesthood to married men, especially those who are already serving as deacons.

Bishops will always be celibate, but priests can be married as we already have married priest who converted from Anglicanism.

Anyway, it will be God’s will, not mine and I pray for His will alone.

I also pray that we don’t end up with priest-less Sundays because of the shortage of priest we’re about to see within 10 years, which is like nothing we’ve ever seen before.

Jim

 

[Tigg]

I pray that they open the priesthood to married men, especially those who are already serving as deacons.

Bishops will always be celibate, but priests can be married as we already have married priest who converted from Anglicanism.

Anyway, it will be God’s will, not mine and I pray for His will alone.

I also pray that we don’t end up with priest-less Sundays because of the shortage of priest we’re about to see within 10 years, which is like nothing we’ve ever seen before.

Jim

5 Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them

1. A married clergy would create a larger pool of healthy priestly candidates, solving the current priest shortage.

There are actually plenty of vocations today in faithful dioceses: Denver, Northern Virginia, and Lincoln, Nebraska, have great numbers of men entering the priesthood. If other dioceses, such as Milwaukee, want to answer the question of why they have so few vocations, the answer is simple: Challenge young men to a religious life that is demanding, countercultural, sacrificial, and loyal to the Holy Father and Catholic teaching. This is the surest way to guarantee a greater number of vocations.

Here for the other 4:
catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0014.html

There are dozens of these articles to be found from various sources and I suspect that the priest shortage is really due to the increased secularization of society and the loss of faith in general.

 

[Yause]

I realize that, that’s why I used the word cannonized. To me it seems there is this obsession with sex, or more specifically abstaining from sex. As an example, I was telling my fiance about St. Catherine of Genoa and how after her conversion experience she lived with her husband as brother and sister. She asked why that was important to mention they didn’t have sex. I coulnd’t give her an answer. Sex and marriage go together like water and life, why would not having sex with her lawful husband make her a more holy person? I am not making a judgement against her, she was a very holy person and her writing on purgatory influenced my thinking way more than most authors. It’s just confusing to me, it feels like the sexually active are 2nd class.

If it weren’t for non-celebates there wouldn’t be any celebates. Does having sex make it less likely that you will get into heaven or does it simply prevent the Church from recognizing that a person is in fact in heaven?

(sorry for any spelling errors)

No, otherwise the Church wouldn’t be so pro-marriage and pro-family.

Celibacy is viewed as a heroic devotion that places God ahead of one of the greatest worldly concerns (biologically, we’re tuned to pass on our genes, and this has been expressed in family pressure to marry and have children). I’ll add that the concept isn’t unique to Christianity either.

Tigg:

There are dozens of these articles to be found from various sources and I suspect that the priest shortage is really due to the increased secularization of society and the loss of faith in general.

I agree, although there may be some benefit in ordaining married men who hear the calling later in life.

At any rate, I don’t see anything wrong either way. The Church will always idealize celibacy (and it’s a requirement for the episcopacy), but the Eastern Catholic traditions have existed fine without requiring it of every priest.

That said, if the Church were to relax the requirement, it should be for a good reason. Doing so as a response to society’s distorted view of sexuality would be silly.