Pope says favors celibacy for priests but door open to change

[JimR-OCDS]

5 Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them

There are dozens of these articles to be found from various sources and I suspect that the priest shortage is really due to the increased secularization of society and the loss of faith in general.

There are many theologians who support married priest, and in fact, we have married priest as I posted.

What will you do if the Church changes and allows married men to become priest ? Will you lose your faith ?

Celibacy should be an option, not forced.

Jim

 

[shelby_sun]

There are many theologians who support married priest, and in fact, we have married priest as I posted.

What will you do if the Church changes and allows married men to become priest ? Will you lose your faith ?

Celibacy should be an option, not forced.

Jim

Exactly what I have been saying. Thank you!

 

[McCall1981]

There are many theologians who support married priest, and in fact, we have married priest as I posted.

What will you do if the Church changes and allows married men to become priest ? Will you lose your faith ?

Celibacy should be an option, not forced.

Jim

And there are many theologians that support manditory celibacy. Will you lose your faith if they keep celibacy?

No one (that I’m aware of) is being all dramatic and saying they’d flip out if it changed (though others keep insinuating that).

I and others are just saying celibacy is better (in our opinion) and that we hope it stays.

 

[shelby_sun]

And there are many theologians that support manditory celibacy. Will you lose your faith if they keep celibacy?

No one (that I’m aware of) is being all dramatic and saying they’d flip out if it changed (though others keep insinuating that).

I and others are just saying celibacy is better (in our opinion) and that we hope it stays.

Why would we leave something we have been fine with all these years? You are still not acknowledging that there is already Catholic married priest and nor one has proven they are worse priest than celibate.

No, you want thing only your way, and we are saying there is a place and benefit to both. In my opinion we are being more open minded and trusting where the Church might take us.

 

[McCall1981]

Why would we leave something we have been fine with all these years? You are still not acknowledging that there is already Catholic married priest and nor one has proven they are worse priest than celiagbate.

No, you want thing only your way, and we are saying there is a place and benefit to both. In my opinion we are being more open minded and trusting where the Church might take us.

Again, no one won’t admit there are married Priests, of course there are, they are great, and they don’t have much to do with discipline we’re talking about. We’re talking about the norm of celibacy for Priests in the RC Church, not about ordinariates and such.

If you think the discipline should change, thats fine, and youre welcome to your opinion. But to assert that people who want manditory celibacy to remain are “closed minded” or just “want things their own way” is absurd because that has been the Church’s discipline for 1000 years and still is.

Has the Church been “closed minded”, and all those people just “wanting things their own way” these past thousand years?

 

[RyanBlack]

Being celibate is a pre requisite for being a man for others. If Gospel values are to be practised it is better to be celibate. That is how celibate priesthood evolved. If a person wants to be a man for his wife or any other woman for that matter, it is better for him to leave priesthood and stop corrupting the catholic fellowship. As regards allowing married men to become priests, it is totally unwarrranted as it is quite impossible. When Jesus told that a man should leave His family to become his true follower He meant it. If some apostles were married the reason is that they came to know of Jesus after marriage and not before. A catholic is supposed to encounter Jesus before becoming married. Let Holy Mary Ever Virgin pray for us sinners that error will not creep in at the behest of modernity.

Jose Thomas

It is not “quite impossible” for married men to become priests. It happens, and has happened throughout the history of the Church.

 

[Tigg]

There are many theologians who support married priest, and in fact, we have married priest as I posted.

What will you do if the Church changes and allows married men to become priest ? Will you lose your faith ?

Celibacy should be an option, not forced.

Jim

Actually many years ago, we too had a married priest who converted from Anglicanism and it was quite the thing to see his wife and five children in the front row at the Sunday 10 am Mass. What will I do if the celibacy rule changes? Actually nothing, and for you to presuppose I would lose my faith over it is ludicrous. It is a beautiful discipline that has been in effect for centuries and most do not understand that the sexual abstinence of the priest which is freely offered to God is similar to that of the marriage commitment. For those interested in understanding, here’s just one article, written by a priest himself that might help explain it.

The imitation of Christ is the first and fundamental reason for priestly celibacy. A reason, however, that is not based on natural reason, or lest still, reasons. You don’t argue yourself into celibacy. It is based on the deeper wisdom of faith. Experience and history, besides the fact of revelation, show that celibacy gives the priest extraordinary freedom, as St. Paul says, freedom of the worries and cares that necessarily go along with marriage and rearing a family.

therealpresence.org/archives/Priesthood/Priesthood_010.htm

And here from the Vatican library is the most beautiful part: (Emphasis mine)

…the objections (to celibacy) would appear to drown out the solemn and age-old voice of the pastors of the Church and of the masters of the spiritual life, and to nullify the living testimony of the countless ranks of saints and faithful ministers of God, for whom celibacy has been the object of the total and generous gift of themselves to the mystery of Christ, as well as its outward sign…They live this life of courageous self-denial and spiritual joyfulness with exemplary fidelity and also with relative facility. This magnificent phenomenon bears testimony to an exceptional facet of the kingdom of God living in the midst of modern society, to which it renders humble and beneficial service as the “light of the world” and the “salt of the earth.”

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis_en.html

I laud the priestly example of extraordinary discipline. If only the world could come close to emulating such a sacrifice we would be so blessed.

 

[WilT]

I have found that it is usually the cradle catholics that have such a hard time accepting this possible change. And why can’t bishops, etc be married? Scripture says that it’s OK, Peter was married ( yes, we don’t know if she was alive during his ministry ) and PK’s (preacher’s kids) can be a trip.

Peter was also asked to leave all and to follow Jesus even up to death. It would be hard to accomplish that if you had a family of 7. Priests need to focus 100 percent on the job.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

McCall

And there are many theologians that support manditory celibacy. Will you lose your faith if they keep celibacy?

We have had celibacy all of my life and my faith isn’t effected by the Church’s policy of mandated celibacy. As I said, I pray for God’s will to be done.

I and others are just saying celibacy is better (in our opinion) and that we hope it stays.

And I pray prohibition of married men to the priesthood is lifted.

Jim

 

[shelby_sun]

Again, no one won’t admit there are married Priests, of course there are, they are great, and they don’t have much to do with discipline we’re talking about. We’re talking about the norm of celibacy for Priests in the RC Church, not about ordinariates and such.

If you think the discipline should change, thats fine, and youre welcome to your opinion. But to assert that people who want manditory celibacy to remain are “closed minded” or just “want things their own way” is absurd because that has been the Church’s discipline for 1000 years and still is.

Has the Church been “closed minded”, and all those people just “wanting things their own way” these past thousand years?

Well if you re-read the OP’s original post you will see it said nothing about celibacy. It talked about being open to married priest, someone else made this thread about celibacy because in fact they were against priest not being celibate.

On that same old tired point of 2000 years, the Church has “evolved” on certain issues over those two those 2000 with altering or “redefining” things. If this was allowed more often I am such it would be only about bettering the Church and not about social pressure. This is note something I would even vote on if I could,which we can’t. I would live it up to those who know the Church’s needs better than I, like the Pope and the Superiors of the Church, wouldn’t you?

 

[GEddie]

There are valid arguments for relaxing clerical celibacy, but pressure from the secular culture is not one of them.

“It is unnatural for a man not to have SEX!” is the most strident objection to clerical celibacy. That is just NOT an argument.

Nor is pedophilia. As others have pointed out, that happens in organizations where leaders never were celibate.

Relaxation or repudiation of celibacy might have worked fine at Vatican I, and it might work fine 250 years from now. But if done now, it would be a perceived surrender to the sexual revolution. The Church would take decades to recover.

And the ending of celibacy would likely lead many young men to leave formation to find a wife; this would make the clerical shortage worse, not better.

ICXC NIKA

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Tigg;

Actually many years ago, we too had a married priest who converted from Anglicanism and it was quite the thing to see his wife and five children in the front row at the Sunday 10 am Mass.

So, it shows that married men can make good priests.

What will I do if the celibacy rule changes? Actually nothing, and for you to presuppose I would lose my faith over it is ludicrous.

I didn’t presuppose anything. I asked you a question.

It is a beautiful discipline that has been in effect for centuries and most do not understand that the sexual abstinence of the priest which is freely offered to God is similar to that of the marriage commitment. For those interested in understanding, here’s just one article, written by a priest himself that might help explain it.

I already posted that celibacy is a beautiful tradition for those who are called to it.

However, I believe it should be optional, not mandatory for men who feel the call to become priests.

And here from the Vatican library is the most beautiful part:

Of course a celibate men of the Vatican are going to promote the virtues of it.

There are also many priest who could tell you the flaws in mandated celibacy and the about the negative psychological effects on some men who who find after a few years of ordination, they can not handle the loneliness of being celibate.

People change as they grow and a man who believes he can live a celibate life at age 18, often finds out at age 30 that he can’t stand it. I’ve known priests to have breakdowns and leave because they could not live a celibate life. They got married and made great husbands and fathers. Too bad those men could continue to serve the Church as priests.

One such man lives up the street from me. He was a good priests, but fell in love with a woman and felt a stronger call toward being a husband and father, which he has been. Too bad he can’t still serve as a priest.

I laud the priestly example of extraordinary discipline. If only the world could come close to emulating such a sacrifice we would be so blessed.

There will be men who are called to celibacy even if the Church lifts mandated celibacy.

As Pope Francis is saying, he favors celibacy, but the door is open to change mandated celibacy.

Jim

 

[GEddie]

Situations where a celibate priest finds himself lonely, or falls in love, are not going to be alleviated by any rubrical change.

As in the Eastern Churches, even if married men are ordained, nobody’s going to get married after ordination.

The lonely thing is hard for me to swallow as a reason to change anything. By the time someone is a priest, they have had more than a decade in formation, and presumably living “alone” as they later would as priests. More than a decade, and the lonely thing doesn’t surface until a few years after they are ordained?

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Tigg]

Well if you re-read the OP’s original post you will see it said nothing about celibacy. It talked about being open to married priest, someone else made this thread about celibacy because in fact they were against priest not being celibate.

The very thread title is the same as the article per forum rules…note the word “celibacy.”

**On that same old tired point of 2000 years, the Church has “evolved” on certain issues over those two those 2000 with altering or “redefining” things. **If this was allowed more often I am such it would be only about bettering the Church and not about social pressure. This is note something I would even vote on if I could,which we can’t. I would live it up to those who know the Church’s needs better than I, like the Pope and the Superiors of the Church, wouldn’t you?

Do you also think that tradition (which along with Sacred Scripture) form the entire Deposit of the Faith is old and tired? Contrary to your words that the Church knows better than us, I find the “old and tired” description actually a criticism of the Catholic faith and the authority which has upheld the celibacy rule. Just to clarify, disciplines can change because they are man-made, but no implication can be made that doctrine changes. It is not redefined, nor altered, but it develops with the same understanding as the Church has always taught - and yes for the past 2,000+ years.

 

[McCall1981]

Well if you re-read the OP’s original post you will see it said nothing about celibacy. It talked about being open to married priest, someone else made this thread about celibacy because in fact they were against priest not being celibate.

On that same old tired point of 2000 years, the Church has “evolved” on certain issues over those two those 2000 with altering or “redefining” things. If this was allowed more often I am such it would be only about bettering the Church and not about social pressure. This is note something I would even vote on if I could,which we can’t.** I would live it up to those who know the Church’s needs better than I, like the Pope and the Superiors of the Church, wouldn’t you?**

But wanting change for a discipline that already exists is not leaving it up to the Pope and hierarchy.

They have already provided an answer on this issue, and that answer is manditory celibacy, so if we’re really leaving it up to them, we would need to accept the discipline theyve already decided on.

If at some point they changed it, we would need to accept that too, but as of right now, “leaving it up to them” would mean accepting the answer theyve given and accepting manditory celibacy.

 

[shelby_sun]

But wanting change for a discipline that already exists is not leaving it up to the Pope and hierarchy.

They have already provided an answer on this issue, and that answer is manditory celibacy, so if we’re really leaving it up to them, we would need to accept the discipline theyve already decided on.

If at some point they changed it, we would need to accept that too, but as of right now, “leaving it up to them” would mean accepting the answer theyve given and accepting manditory celibacy.

So are you telling me that the married priest we have in the Catholic church must be celibate? If the answer is no, then not all Catholic priest have to be celibate, period. I understand the ones that are not married must remain celibate, but you simply want to keep arguing that priests, inferring ALL Catholic priest, must be celibate. Your are the one that seems stuck. Going in circles.

 

[McCall1981]

So are you telling me that the married priest we have in the Catholic church must be celibate? If the answer is no, then not all Catholic priest have to be celibate, period. I understand the ones that are not married must remain celibate, but you simply want to keep arguing that priests, inferring ALL Catholic priest, must be celibate. Your are the one that seems stuck. Going in circles.

I am aware that married RC Priests exist. I have no problem with them. They come from ordinariates and such, and thats fine.

The norm is the discipline of celibacy, and I hope that discipline remains.

 

[shelby_sun]

I am aware that married RC Priests exist. I have no problem with them. They come from ordinariates and such, and thats fine.

The norm is the discipline of celibacy, and I hope that discipline remains.

Well, I guess we will have to wait and see. I seriously doubt their will be any changes to the issue other than the converted married priests that are already allowed and possible deacons, and again I think they have something huge to offer people in our Church; although maybe not you, in which case you will still have the celibate priest.

It is funny, with all the sacrifices priest make, and I spend everyday interacting with them, I never think about sex or celibacy.

 

[tiwarilady12]

Sorry to bring this up but too many priest have done terrible things to children over many years, so I think this has to be at least looked into. The bottom line is we need priest and good ones, if that means allowing married priests into the Church, it may just be a blessing, especially if we start with allowing deacons to become priest. They would certainly know what the role entails and how the family would have to sacrifice.

What may have happened with some children is a not a result of priests’ celibacy. There are secular people in society that are married and still molest and abuse children, sometimes even their own children. Marriage is not a solution to such problems nor should such a holy sacrament ever be viewed as a solution for release of pent up sexual energy. People, not just priests, need to learn to control their sexual cravings. Those that prey on children have the choice to carry out their sexual pleasures with consenting adults, even so far as hiring prostitutes (which is still sinful and should be avoided) but just goes to show that anyone (regardless of priesthood) who uses children for such purposes has serious issues both mentally and spiritually.

Furthermore, being a priest is not a job or career. It is a vocation, a calling, a sacrifice. It is called a sacrifice because it is an alternate lifestyle that calls an individual to leave behind many of the typical pleasures of a secular lifestyle. It is a calling to a life of devotion. A priest must be able to fully devote his life to the Lord and be focused enough to be a leader to his parish or those who have been placed within his path to counsel and care for. While marriage is also a holy sacrament, it’s purpose is to create a blessed union between two people. Much focus within a marriage should be on the health and well being of those people and their children with faith and guidance from the Lord. Holy Orders is a sacrament with the purpose of further uniting a person to our Lord. They should be free of the distractions that come with tending to a typical spouse and family. The Lord is their spouse and the church is their family. They have chosen that over the alternate. Priesthood is not a job one would get up in the morning and leave their family to go do and clock out of at the end of the day. It is a lifestyle - 24 hrs 365 days and requires true focus.

If there are priests who want to become married, they may need to take time to self reflect and seek counsel from the Holy Spirit as they may be misunderstanding their true calling. Maybe they should be married and not be a priest - priesthood is not for everyone. Or maybe they should be remain a priest but need to come to terms with (through God’s grace) what they are sacrificing.

As a whole, we need to be supportive of priests and the difficult vocation they have chosen to devote their lives to and help to encourage them to focus on their one true mission, true spouse and true family.

 

[commenter]

As in the Eastern Churches, even if married men are ordained, nobody’s going to get married after ordination.
ICXC NIKA.

True. But why not? Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don’t allow priests to marry. I assume that is (changeable) discipline, not dogma. I wonder about the rationale. Is it because flirting, dating, courtship, etc is such an uncertain process that the distraction and tension would be incompatible with priesthood? As a layman I could believe that (33rd anniversary today).

In a way, the argument for celibacy is stronger than a few decades ago. Catholic marriage and family life is under far greater stress. The percent of married men with marital problems seems higher than the percentage of priests with obvious vocational problems. The Church has a responsibility to protect both sacraments, not just Holy Orders. In the local Episcopal diocese, their clergy divorce rate has gone way up.

What we need is more information about the experience of married priests in the Eastern Churches; not just how they are doing as priests but as husbands and fathers. What strengths, and weaknesses, seem to be common in their family life? What are the positives here?