Pope says he'd rather trust God than live in bullet-proof bubble

[kag1982]

How did either of these persons recklessly put themselves in harm’s way? Jesus knew it would happen. That’s not the same as putting one’s self in harm’s way.

I don’t consider that you’ve proven me wrong here. The pope knows society is deranged. If he insists on rejecting reasonable safety measures and goes running through mega-crowds completely unprotected, not only is that a case of putting one’s self in harm’s way unnecessarily, but he disrespects those who desperately need him to stay alive, and lead, protect, and defend the Church. God does not have anything to do with people taking unnecessary risks with their safety.

Francis is compromising from his standpoint. I do think that he actually enjoys being pope but he does not like the fact that he cannot go out walking in Rome. Francis would like to rent a small apartment in Rome and walk/ ride public transportation to work each day. Apparently, there is a new biography of Francis that suggests that he slipped out of the Vatican on the night of his election because he was too shocked to sleep and drove around Rome in a small car (perhaps the Ford Focus ). Security can go overboard and it seems that someone finally called them on it. I do think that the Pope needs to be told “no” and it seems like security in Rio told him this. But Francis’ pastoral style involves lots of human contact and they have to give him the ability to glad hand and kiss babies in a reasonable manner.

 

[RB2]

If you put yourself in harm’s way, God doesn’t really have anything to do with that.

I suppose your saying that if someone recklessy puts themselves in harm’s way in an immoral and sinful way then you would be correct. But I think your actual above comment is just ‘social speak’ for what you think like so many here do. They speak socially not doctrinally. They speak what they think without being informed and without touching on doctrinal truth. Its wrong the way its worded on so many levels. And yet is was directed at me as a correction or truth. But is probably salient advise for children.

I am not here to debate others or engage in back and forths with those who are here mostly just to share their opinions But when I am here I try to speak doctrinally(truth) from years of immersion and self-study in everything Catholicism. Additionally I have a library at home of over 250 Catholic books, with somewhere over half of them read. The greater part of those reviewed up on Amazon.

Putting your life on the line for the mission of the Church for souls and other peoples lives is what Christianity is about.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Jesus walked a path whose prime destiny would lead to his death.
What would be the difference if the Pope knew his path also led to death/martyrdom?

St. Therese of Liseiux: Doctor of the Church
"Martyrdom was the dream of my youth and this dream has grown within me.”

St Maximillian Kolbe: volunteered his life over another, neither sinfully or immorally.

Pope Francis ministers to his flock by being close to his people, neither sinfully or immorally.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-are-called-to-daily-martyrdom-says-pope/

1. Perhaps God has told him that he would die a martyr. Perhaps he is going to usher in an age of martrydom for the church. This is the age and times for these things, perhaps its exact moment! Consequently, you have Pope Francis entrusting his life to Christ knowing that the time and place of his death has already been determined by God and that God will protect his life until then. It may also be that Pope Francis thinks that taking many steps to protect his life may thwart Gods plan.

As to my original statement, many Popes have mystical advice or words from God guiding them.This is not unusual, either through their prayer or powerful mystics. I have this in my life. Thats why I look at his behavior and theorize that he may have been told he is to die a martyr. He may not have, its just an analysis.So I am sharing some experience in this area. Additionally, I know of quite a few people who have been asked by God to be martyrs. Now this is unusual, but it is not unusual for this time! There is a prominent forum where just such gifted people share this. So consequently, seeing the Pope’s behavior it fits both my experience and the experience of others.

 

[NorthernAdams]

I suppose your saying that if someone recklessy puts themselves in harm’s way in an immoral and sinful way then you would be correct. But I think your actual above comment is just ‘social speak’ for what you think like so many here do. They speak socially not doctrinally. They speak what they think without being informed and without touching on doctrinal truth. Its wrong the way its worded on so many levels. And yet is was directed at me as a correction or truth. But is probably salient advise for children.

My what saying? I don’t have a saying. ???

I am not here to debate others or engage in back and forths with those who are here mostly just to share their opinions But when I am here I try to speak doctrinally(truth) from years of immersion and self-study in everything Catholicism. Additionally I have a library at home of over 250 Catholic books, with somewhere over half of them read. The greater part of those reviewed up on Amazon.

You have a lovely resume, and I’m sure you’re a hard worker, but I’m not a business owner and I’m not hiring right now.

What this all thrown out there because obviously it means that in any instance where you find yourself in disagreement with someone else, you’re supposed to be declared winner by default? Why else did I get all this additional information that has nothing at all to do with the original post/question?

Putting your life on the line for the mission of the Church for souls and other peoples lives is what Christianity is about.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Jesus walked a path whose prime destiny would lead to his death.
What would be the difference if the Pope knew his path also led to death/martyrdom?

St. Therese of Liseiux: Doctor of the Church
"Martyrdom was the dream of my youth and this dream has grown within me.”

St Maximillian Kolbe: volunteered his life over another, neither sinfully or immorally.

Pope Francis ministers to his flock by being close to his people, neither sinfully or immorally.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-are-called-to-daily-martyrdom-says-pope/

As to my original statement, many Popes have mystical advice or words from God guiding them.This is not unusual, either through their prayer or powerful mystics. I have this in my life. Thats why I look at his behavior and theorize that he may have been told he is to die a martyr. He may not have, its just an analysis.So I am sharing some experience in this area. Additionally, I know of quite a few people who have been asked by God to be martyrs. Now this is unusual, but it is not unusual for this time! There is a prominent forum where just such gifted people share this. So consequently, seeing the Pope’s behavior it fits both my experience and the experience of others.

You seem to be trolling me on multiple threads. First of all, “I suppose your saying” --my saying what? I didn’t introduce any sayings, just a few opinions.

Second, laying your life on the line is one thing, wasting it is another. Example: soldiers fought and died preserving freedom and democracy, right? They laid their lives on the line.

And yet, every single one of them wore a helmet, right? That is how you lay your life on the line for a worthy cause and yet still take reasonable precautions.

Sorry, but you’re wrong. Being a pope and running out into large groups of people with no protection is irresponsible and unjustifiable. If he cares about the people, he doesn’t do that sort of thing.

 

[RB2]

Your in my prayers. Good Luck!

 

[NorthernAdams]

Your in my prayers. Good Luck!

Your what is in your prayers? That makes no sense.

 

[SonCatcher]

Christians are being persecuted in many parts of the world - in communist countries such as China, Vietnam, and North Korea, and in almost any Muslim country.

I am not ignorant of that. Indeed, I have extended family in such a country. However, the Holy See is not located in nor does the Holy Father frequently visit such places.

 

[RB2]

NorthernAdams/Yvette
Piece be with you!

 

[NorthernAdams]

NorthernAdams/Yvette
Piece be with you!

Piece?

Oh, okay.

 

[JReducation]

The preoccupation that lay people and secular clergy have with the pope’s security can give the mistaken impression that secular clergy and secular layman do not understand religious or have no respect for the religious way of life. I don’t think that’s the case, but the people doing the talking don’t realize how they sound.

Pope Francis is a religious. His predecessors have been secular priests. The last religious to be pope was in the 1700s. The problem here is that secular clergy and secular laymen are looking at the papacy through a short telescope. They only see the papal tradition from the secular perspective. I sometimes wonder if they forget that we have had religious who were popes and that they were very different from their secular counterparts.

The reason is very simple. Male religious come in three packages. One can be a monk. Monks live a quiet life of work and prayer. Such a man, if elected pope, prefers a retiring existence. Look at Pope Celestine.

A male religious can be a friar. A friar’s life is focused on three elements: liturgy, community and mission in that order. Such a pope is not going to be too concerned about the external trappings of the papacy, but will be much more concerned about the liturgical life of the Church, very connected with those around him, especially is order, and come to the papacy with a sense of mission. He has a plan to get a job done. Look at Pope Pius V. The man never dressed as a pope. He wore his Dominican habit all the time. It is from the time of Pius V that popes began to dress in white. Prior to that they dressed in red. Pius reformed the liturgy. He also remained very obedient to Dominic.

The third model of male religious is one that we have not seen until today, that is the clerk regular. Jesuits a clerks regular. These religious are always priests, whereas friars and monks are not always priests. These religious were founded to live in anonymity among the secular world. For that reason, clerks regular do not wear habits. They have never worn habits. They dressed as if they were secular priests, even though they’re not secular. They are religious. Their life is characterized by prayer, community, and social action. They were founded to care for the poor, teach, preach, care for the sick and dying, and to assist governments. Their mission is to go out to the edges of society, to the places where no one goes and to be willing to die to get there. They’re like marines Because the Jesuits are clerks regular, this is how they live.

Because the pope is a Jesuit, this is how he lives.

The disrespect comes into the picture when the faithful, be it laity or clergy, try to strip away a person’s primary vocation, the religious life, in order to sooth our own apprehensions and paranoia. Yes, the pope places himself in positions of danger.

Those of us who are religious would be very much ashamed of a religious pope who is unfaithful to his vocation. He did not make it to the papacy because he was a bad Jesuit. Just the opposite. He made it because his faithfulness caught the attention of the conclave. The Holy Spirit inspired the conclave to look in that direction. When they did look, what did they see? They saw a faithful Jesuit religious.

It’s a slap in the face to the more than 3 million religious in the Catholic Church to insinuate that religious life and the religious vocation is so trite and so inconsequential that one can lay it aside because one is pope. The papacy is an office that the person can leave at any time. We just saw Pope Benedict do just that. Whereas when one makes vows as a religious, the formula is “I vow and promise to observe all of these things until the end of my life or forfeit my immortal soul.” You don’t walk away so lightly.

It is true that many have done so, but it is not the right thing to do. A covenant should be fulfilled as promised, because God takes his end of the covenant very seriously, so should we take our end seriously. In this case, we should encourage, not discourage our religious pope to set an example for others religious, for married people, for young people to take seriously the covenants that they have made, even if it costs them their lives.

 

[RB2]

Our Lady of Quito Prophecy:

During this time, Our Lady foretold, “the secular Clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry, and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain. How the Church will suffer during this dark night! Lacking a Prelate and Father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger. This will mark the arrival of My hour.”

Youtube overview of Lady of Quito Prophecy:
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LBfaklMOagE

defn: Secular Clergy are generally diocesan priests not attached to an order.

 

[JReducation]

Our Lady of Quito Prophecy:

During this time, Our Lady foretold, “the secular Clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry, and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain. How the Church will suffer during this dark night! Lacking a Prelate and Father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger. This will mark the arrival of My hour.”

Youtube overview of Lady of Quito Prophecy:
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LBfaklMOagE

defn: Secular Clergy are generally diocesan priests not attached to an order.

I’m totally confused here. The pope is not a secular priest. He’s a clerk regular or in simple language a regular priest. How does the above apply to this report on what the Holy Father said?

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[RB2]

No, JR it relates and supports what you were saying in your post about the secular clergy.

In addition, the term ‘secular clergy’ would be confusing for most so I gave a definition for it.
Additionally, I had reviewed the Lady of Quito prophecy lately and remembered its use of the term ‘secular clergy’ so I thought it would be a tie-in to what you were writing.

If in fact that most people are unaware, Our Lady of Quito prophecy originated in the 16th century to a nun in Ecuador and talked of the 20th century our time, and details or prophecies of the 20th century quite accurately. It is a formally Church-approved apparition/prophecy.

 

[GraceSofia]

The preoccupation that lay people and secular clergy have with the pope’s security can give the mistaken impression that secular clergy and secular layman do not understand religious or have no respect for the religious way of life. I don’t think that’s the case, but the people doing the talking don’t realize how they sound.

Pope Francis is a religious. His predecessors have been secular priests. The last religious to be pope was in the 1700s. The problem here is that secular clergy and secular laymen are looking at the papacy through a short telescope. They only see the papal tradition from the secular perspective. I sometimes wonder if they forget that we have had religious who were popes and that they were very different from their secular counterparts.
…]
They’re like marines Because the Jesuits are clerks regular, this is how they live.

Because the pope is a Jesuit, this is how he lives.

The disrespect comes into the picture when the faithful, be it laity or clergy, try to strip away a person’s primary vocation, the religious life, in order to sooth our own apprehensions and paranoia. Yes, the pope places himself in positions of danger.

Those of us who are religious would be very much ashamed of a religious pope who is unfaithful to his vocation. He did not make it to the papacy because he was a bad Jesuit. Just the opposite. He made it because his faithfulness caught the attention of the conclave. The Holy Spirit inspired the conclave to look in that direction. When they did look, what did they see? They saw a faithful Jesuit religious.

It’s a slap in the face to the more than 3 million religious in the Catholic Church to insinuate that religious life and the religious vocation is so trite and so inconsequential that one can lay it aside because one is pope. The papacy is an office that the person can leave at any time. We just saw Pope Benedict do just that. Whereas when one makes vows as a religious, the formula is “I vow and promise to observe all of these things until the end of my life or forfeit my immortal soul.” You don’t walk away so lightly.

It is true that many have done so, but it is not the right thing to do. A covenant should be fulfilled as promised, because God takes his end of the covenant very seriously, so should we take our end seriously. In this case, we should encourage, not discourage our religious pope to set an example for others religious, for married people, for young people to take seriously the covenants that they have made, even if it costs them their lives.

Thank you for this! I love Pope Francis, and I love Pope emeritus Benedict, and some of the things Catholics write about them (highlighting differences and comparing) have been confusing to me. This helps a lot. You have hit on something very important here-- that people are not used to having a religious as pope. Love the idea of them as marines. Hehehe… if just what the Church needs is a marine pope, the Holy Spirit has supplied one.

 

[confusedgirl]

I wonder what John Paul II would say.

If he would prefer to be without the bubble, maybe he could make use of this :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped....jpg/220px-Sedia_gestatoria_pope_Pius_VII.jpg

Truly, viva il Papa.

Pope John Paul II was shot at twice I hope the same doesn’t happen to Pope Francis

 

[DAML72]

This is the man who rode the public buses as a cardinal in a violence-torn country. I think he does not want to live in a bubble when so many of the faithful are at risk every day. And I admire him for that.

Uhm, where do you get that Argentina is a violence-torn country? They went through a few rough years when the economy was bad, but to call it violence-torn. Wow. I lived there in the early 90s and found it to be very safe. It is also a very Catholic country. When 90% + of the population is raised Catholic, even if they are not in communion with the Church, people are going to respect a Bishop.

 

[DAML72]

I suppose your saying that if someone recklessy puts themselves in harm’s way in an immoral and sinful way then you would be correct. But I think your actual above comment is just ‘social speak’ for what you think like so many here do. They speak socially not doctrinally. They speak what they think without being informed and without touching on doctrinal truth. Its wrong the way its worded on so many levels. And yet is was directed at me as a correction or truth. But is probably salient advise for children.

I am not here to debate others or engage in back and forths with those who are here mostly just to share their opinions But when I am here I try to speak doctrinally(truth) from years of immersion and self-study in everything Catholicism. Additionally I have a library at home of over 250 Catholic books, with somewhere over half of them read. The greater part of those reviewed up on Amazon.

Putting your life on the line for the mission of the Church for souls and other peoples lives is what Christianity is about.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Jesus walked a path whose prime destiny would lead to his death.
What would be the difference if the Pope knew his path also led to death/martyrdom?

St. Therese of Liseiux: Doctor of the Church
"Martyrdom was the dream of my youth and this dream has grown within me.”

St Maximillian Kolbe: volunteered his life over another, neither sinfully or immorally.

Pope Francis ministers to his flock by being close to his people, neither sinfully or immorally.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-are-called-to-daily-martyrdom-says-pope/

As to my original statement, many Popes have mystical advice or words from God guiding them.This is not unusual, either through their prayer or powerful mystics. I have this in my life. Thats why I look at his behavior and theorize that he may have been told he is to die a martyr. He may not have, its just an analysis.So I am sharing some experience in this area. Additionally, I know of quite a few people who have been asked by God to be martyrs. Now this is unusual, but it is not unusual for this time! There is a prominent forum where just such gifted people share this. So consequently, seeing the Pope’s behavior it fits both my experience and the experience of others.

This is so beautiful. I get where everyone is coming from when they say that he needs to take measures to protect himself - and I’m not arguing that he shouldn’t. Of course he should. But to say that he needs to be put inside a bubble because we need him and God won’t protect him if he is stupid enough to put himself at risk. To me, that is bordering on blasphemy. Where is the faith? Did Our Lady not intervene to save the life of Pope John Paul II? If it is God’s will that Pope Francis be with us for the long haul, then he will be. Heaven will protect him. If Pope Francis feels that the Holy Spirit is leading him to be closer to the flock, than who are we to judge otherwise? Really!

 

[DAML72]

The preoccupation that lay people and secular clergy have with the pope’s security can give the mistaken impression that secular clergy and secular layman do not understand religious or have no respect for the religious way of life. I don’t think that’s the case, but the people doing the talking don’t realize how they sound.

Pope Francis is a religious. His predecessors have been secular priests. The last religious to be pope was in the 1700s. The problem here is that secular clergy and secular laymen are looking at the papacy through a short telescope. They only see the papal tradition from the secular perspective. I sometimes wonder if they forget that we have had religious who were popes and that they were very different from their secular counterparts.

The reason is very simple. Male religious come in three packages. One can be a monk. Monks live a quiet life of work and prayer. Such a man, if elected pope, prefers a retiring existence. Look at Pope Celestine.

A male religious can be a friar. A friar’s life is focused on three elements: liturgy, community and mission in that order. Such a pope is not going to be too concerned about the external trappings of the papacy, but will be much more concerned about the liturgical life of the Church, very connected with those around him, especially is order, and come to the papacy with a sense of mission. He has a plan to get a job done. Look at Pope Pius V. The man never dressed as a pope. He wore his Dominican habit all the time. It is from the time of Pius V that popes began to dress in white. Prior to that they dressed in red. Pius reformed the liturgy. He also remained very obedient to Dominic.

The third model of male religious is one that we have not seen until today, that is the clerk regular. Jesuits a clerks regular. These religious are always priests, whereas friars and monks are not always priests. These religious were founded to live in anonymity among the secular world. For that reason, clerks regular do not wear habits. They have never worn habits. They dressed as if they were secular priests, even though they’re not secular. They are religious. Their life is characterized by prayer, community, and social action. They were founded to care for the poor, teach, preach, care for the sick and dying, and to assist governments. Their mission is to go out to the edges of society, to the places where no one goes and to be willing to die to get there. They’re like marines Because the Jesuits are clerks regular, this is how they live.

Because the pope is a Jesuit, this is how he lives.

The disrespect comes into the picture when the faithful, be it laity or clergy, try to strip away a person’s primary vocation, the religious life, in order to sooth our own apprehensions and paranoia. Yes, the pope places himself in positions of danger.

Those of us who are religious would be very much ashamed of a religious pope who is unfaithful to his vocation. He did not make it to the papacy because he was a bad Jesuit. Just the opposite. He made it because his faithfulness caught the attention of the conclave. The Holy Spirit inspired the conclave to look in that direction. When they did look, what did they see? They saw a faithful Jesuit religious.

It’s a slap in the face to the more than 3 million religious in the Catholic Church to insinuate that religious life and the religious vocation is so trite and so inconsequential that one can lay it aside because one is pope. The papacy is an office that the person can leave at any time. We just saw Pope Benedict do just that. Whereas when one makes vows as a religious, the formula is “I vow and promise to observe all of these things until the end of my life or forfeit my immortal soul.” You don’t walk away so lightly.

It is true that many have done so, but it is not the right thing to do. A covenant should be fulfilled as promised, because God takes his end of the covenant very seriously, so should we take our end seriously. In this case, we should encourage, not discourage our religious pope to set an example for others religious, for married people, for young people to take seriously the covenants that they have made, even if it costs them their lives.

Thank you so much for this!