Pope Says There is Only One True Church

[estesbob]

I don’t think this entirely accurate. what the church teaches is that these other ecclesial communities have sufficient catholic belief to obtain salvation. It is not that they can be saved outslde the church, but rather, that they are part of the Catholic church by virtue of their beliefs.

The Church does not teach that they are part of the Catholic Church-just that their salvation comes through the Church. A minor but important difference

 

[E.E.N.S]

First off, I really love this thread, and I would like to participate more. I have been searching for a mature thread were fellow children of God can share their thoughts on these subjects.

I would like to respond to this post. In fact, I am feeling compelled to. You are right to expect love from Catholics to Protestants and vice versa. But, what is love, in this sense?

Would it be love to let someone remain ignorant of something? Christ commands us to teach the ignorant.

I am thinking of a situation where my son or daughter was under the impression that it was o.k. to listen to music that wasn’t good for him/her. Now, to keep the peace, I could very well say that it is o.k. for them to listen to the music, as long as they didn’t take it to heart. In that scenario, I remain the “cool” parent, and everyone seems happy. I know better, though.

I should not let my child go under the misconception that it would be dangerous to listen to music that is bad, and I should give them the truth of the matter. THAT is love. THAT is what Christ was talking about.

It is our duty as parents, and his as pope, to profess the truth in all things. It would not be love (read Charity) to do otherwise.

This is what the pope, and the Church have always done.

To digress for a minute, let me say this: I believe that under most conditions, if you are baptized outside the Catholic Church, you are really baptized. But, what if you sin afterwards, who doesn’t from time to time? How will you be forgiven?

“Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I send you. . . Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you do not forgive, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:22-23)

We NEED confession. Christ indicates that this is a must. He puts his apostles and those that follow in a special place to do this.

So, back to my question. Sure, you can be baptized outside the Church, but what if you sin afterwards? How will you take part in this Sacrament (Confession) without a true descendant of the apostles?

This is just one of the reasons that this statement by the pope is truly Love (again, read Charity).

One more thing … there is plenty of sugar coating going on in the world today. It has been going on for decades, now. What has it brought us, besides escalation of immorality. Immodesty of dress and music, acceptance of pornography by most men, crippling divorce rates, rampant drug use, etc. These are all from the “acceptance” or “sugar coating” philosophy of our troubled world. We need some clarity and avoidance of these things. THAT would be, in my opinion, the most loving (charitable) move on our part.

One more ramble … a common theme in my post is “Charity” … a little pet peeve of mine … it’s “Faith, Hope, and Charity” rather than “Faith, Hope, and Love”.

Ok, I’m done.

Good post.

 

[guanophore]

Don’t be mad at me, but I was a bit disheartened to read this. Of course, the Pope is going to say that there is only one true church, but I don’t think this will help with reaching out to other faiths. You want to bring others into fold, as it were, but I think you need to find common ground first. John Paul II was pretty good at doing that, I thought. This seemed kind of harsh.

I’ve been away from the church around 30 years and am now just coming around to thinking about attending and becoming active again. But this latest development makes me pause.

welcome to CAF.

I understand your point, but the most common ground we have already is that there is only one church,and all those who are baptized into Christ are part of that Church. I realize that there are many rabid-anticatholics out there who are sincere about their faith, and find it scandalous that, in some mysterious manner, we believe them all to be Catholic. however, that is the truth.

MOst protestants agree on the Apostles creed and the authority of scripture. The pope’s teaching is suppored there:

Eph 4:3-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

This is unity.

 

[Sabda]

Yes, true, but that also contradicts another thing in the Bible. According to the Bible, God judges us. We don’t get to choose heaven or hell(but personally, I think we do.) That’s only according to Scripture, again showing you how it contradicts itself.

Yes, we do get to choose. Every choice you make has a consequence to it. When you take the time to think about the consequences of your actions you are practicing the virtue of prudence. Unfortunately most people today do not appear to be practicing this virtue. If you look at the judgment scenes in light of the second commandment that Christ gave us you’ll see that love is very much a part of the picture, as is our ability to chose.

Matt 25:31-46"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

What were these people judged according to? They were judged according to the second commandment that Jesus gave us, “to love our neighbor as ourselves”. These people had a choice. They could choose to care for those who had less then them or were in need or not. It was their choice and God merely judged them by the choices that they had made. God loves us all and wants us all to be saved. In fact he loves us so much that he gave us the free will to make choices for ourselves. If we consistently make choices that are contrary to his will that is most certainly not his fault, but ours. He simply judges us accordingly. This is why it’s possible for those who never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel to be saved.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

the most common ground we have already is that there is only one church,and all those who are baptized into Christ are part of that Church.

Then all protestants (or at least the baptized ones) too are part of that ONE TRUE Church. Why do we have to say that it is the Catholic church under the authority of the Pope? Why reject the idea of a Church that is larger than the Catholic church?

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BTW, I would appreciate it if other posters might let guanophore answer this for himself. I seem to understand his posts better than most other Catholics on here.

 

[rpp]

That is a lie propagated by the Roman church. You can be catholic but not Roman Catholic.

How, exactly?

 

[guanophore]

Then all protestants (or at least the baptized ones) too are part of that ONE TRUE Church. Why do we have to say that it is the Catholic church under the authority of the Pope? Why reject the idea of a Church that is larger than the Catholic church?

Because the pope believes that the Catholic Church, under the authority of the Pope is the church that Jesus founded. This in no way rejects the reality that the invisible church is larger than the visible Catholic Church. It just means that all those who are “in Christ” are in some mysterious way that is hard to understand, all Catholic. Orthodox, protestants, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, any people that God sees fit to save are saved through the Church, since all who are saved are part of His Body, and He only has One.

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BTW, I would appreciate it if other posters might let guanophore answer this for himself. I seem to understand his posts better than most other Catholics on here.

I am honored. I guess those three years I spent in a protestant seminary are going to be of use after all!

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Because the pope believes that the Catholic Church, under the authority of the Pope is the church that Jesus founded. This in no way rejects the reality that the invisible church is larger than the visible Catholic Church. It just means that all those who are “in Christ” are in some mysterious way that is hard to understand, all Catholic. Orthodox, protestants, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, any people that God sees fit to save are saved through the Church, since all who are saved are part of His Body, and He only has One.

Well, even though I respect to the Pope, and I do agree with him that there is only one true Church, still I would like to substitute the following personal statement for his document:

The Church of Jesus Christ is the community of all true believers under His sovereign Lordship. This Church, the Body of Christ, is one because it shares one Lord, one faith, one baptism. It is holy because it belongs to God and is set apart for His purposes in the world. It is apostolic because it partakes of the authority granted to the apostles by Christ Himself. It is universal because it includes all believers, both living and dead, in every nation, regardless of denominational affiliation. Its authenticity is to be found wherever the pure Word of God is preached and taught; wherever the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion are celebrated in obedience to Christ’s command; wherever the gifts of the Holy Spirit upbuild the body and bring spiritual growth; wherever the Spirit of God creates a loving, caring fellowship, and a faithfulness in witness and service to the world; and wherever discipline is administered with love under the guidance of the Word of God. The Church, as the Bride of Christ, will ultimately be joined with her Lord in triumphant glory.

 

[Mark_Marilyn]

How is reiterating a doctrine that has been held all along backtracking? Now you may disagree with the Doctrine but to claim this is somehow “backtracking” is not correct.

Excuse me??? There are others who have the honest impression that ‘backtracking’ or ‘reaction’ is involved – meaning risking undoing the past or recent good works of ecumenism, dialogue and/or understanding that had so far been achieved.
theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070712.POPE12/TPStory/?query=Pope

…the statement prompted condemnation and dismay.
“It’s not encouraging,” said Catherine Clifford, a theology professor at St. Paul University in Ottawa.
“This position fails to take account of the growth toward a common understand of the church that’s emerged from 40 years of interchurch dialogue.”

and…

“He has a vision, which is a retro-vision,” Prof. Boutin said. “This doesn’t help Catholics who are trying to build an ecumenical church.”

and…

“It seems to risk undoing some of the good ecumenical work that’s been done,” said Rev. Stephen Kendall, principal clerk of the Presbyterian Church in Canada. “But I’m confident in our ongoing relations with the Catholic structures in Canada.”

…although the latter quote ends in a positive, more confident note that relations and understanding will endure, despite what could be perceived as insultiing…
quotes from Globe&Mail, Thur.,July 12

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Well, even though I respect to the Pope, and I do agree with him that there is only one true Church, still I would like to substitute the following personal statement for his document:

That was beauifully and perfectly written Did you write that GS or is that from someone else?I mean the other paragraph that did not show up on my post

Regardless that is the True Church that Jesus is still building:thumbsup:

AMEN!!!

 

[allischalmers]

the Church is the result of Christ’s redemptive work, not the means of it

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I understand that Catholics believe that even non-Catholic Christians, even if only separated brethern, are still indeed genuinely Christian. Do Catholics believe that non-Catholic Christians are also “saints” in the sense that Paul uses the term in his letters?

(For that matter, maybe I should have asked if Catholics understand themselves to be “saints”, not just those that are so labelled like St. So-and-So?)

 

[sadie2723]

I understand that Catholics believe that even non-Catholic Christians, even if only separated brethern, are still indeed genuinely Christian. Do Catholics believe that non-Catholic Christians are also “saints” in the sense that Paul uses the term in his letters?

(For that matter, maybe I should have asked if Catholics understand themselves to be “saints”, not just those that are so labelled like St. So-and-So?)

Well, you are not a saint unless you are canonized by the Catholic Church. Thus, those of us living as Catholics at this time to not view ourselves as saints. We do, however, aspire to sainthood which is the whole point. As to non-Catholics becoming saints, it has never happened, but I do not think it is beyond the scope of possibility.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Excuse me??? There are others who have the honest impression that ‘backtracking’ or ‘reaction’ is involved – meaning risking undoing the past or recent good works of ecumenism, dialogue and/or understanding that had so far been achieved.

There is only one true ecumenism-the return to Rome of all of those who are separated from Her. If this letter throws a wrench into what some people think of as “ecumenism”-God be praised.

 

[estesbob]

Excuse me??? There are others who have the honest impression that ‘backtracking’ or ‘reaction’ is involved – meaning risking undoing the past or recent good works of ecumenism, dialogue and/or understanding that had so far been achieved.
theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070712.POPE12/TPStory/?query=Pope

Wow they found three people who disgree with it? There was absoultely no backtracking. Just becuase someone says is is doesnt make it so

The one lady on article stated it was undoing 40 years of Ecumenism. Well lets see what Vatican II had to say about this 40 years ago:

• "[Christ] asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which men enter through baptism as through a door" (*Lumen Gentium *14).
• The Church is “a sign and instrument . . . of communion with God and unity among all men” (LG 1).
• The Church is "a visible organization through which [Christ] communicates truth and grace to all men" (LG 8).
• The Church is Jesus Christ’s “**instrument for the salvation of all” (LG 9). **
• “Rising from the dead, [Christ] . . .** set up his body which is the Church as the universal sacrament of salvation**” (LG 48).
• “The Catholic Church was founded by Christ our Lord to bring salvation to all men” (*Inter Mirifica *3).
  Now can you show us any links that would show there was a time the Church did not teach this?

 

[estesbob]

I understand that Catholics believe that even non-Catholic Christians, even if only separated brethern, are still indeed genuinely Christian. Do Catholics believe that non-Catholic Christians are also “saints” in the sense that Paul uses the term in his letters?

(For that matter, maybe I should have asked if Catholics understand themselves to be “saints”, not just those that are so labelled like St. So-and-So?)

Only people in Heaven are Saints. If a non-catholic makes it to Heaven they are a Saint

 

[estesbob]

Well, you are not a saint unless you are canonized by the Catholic Church. Thus, those of us living as Catholics at this time to not view ourselves as saints. We do, however, aspire to sainthood which is the whole point. As to non-Catholics becoming saints, it has never happened, but I do not think it is beyond the scope of possibility.

This is not correct. EVERYONE in Heaven is a Saint. Being cannonized as a Saint means the Church has determined that person in indeed in Heaven.

 

[sadie2723]

This is not correct. EVERYONE in Heaven is a Saint. Being cannonized as a Saint means the Church has determined that person in indeed in Heaven.

I do not agree with this at all. Where, in Catholic teaching or in the Bible, does it say that everyone making it to heaven becomes a saint?

 

[Nechasin]

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church starting at paragraph 946 when it talks about the Communion of Saints for the definition of what are Saints and saints.
Everybody in Heaven is a Saint. The canonization process is just the Church proclaiming that they are in Heaven.

 

[sadie2723]

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church starting at paragraph 946 when it talks about the Communion of Saints for the definition of what are Saints and saints.
Everybody in Heaven is a Saint. The canonization process is just the Church proclaiming that they are in Heaven.

I stand corrected. My bad!

Cheers!