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Ahimsa
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Some Pentecostals have been known to superciliously disapprove of the proverbially known smokin’ and drinkin’ of their Baptist brethren.
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mozart-250
Guest
It is just that the irony of the following hit me with that post.
- Both Catholic and Orthodox denominations claim “One True Church” status of themselves. The other is at best “defective”.
- The Catholic apologetic (as stated to Protestants anyway) of their denomination being “One True Church” against us poor, heretic Prtotestants is insufficient to distinguish themselves versus the Orthodox.
- So why should I believe their apologetic if can not even eliminate the Orthodox.
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Sixtus
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I see Catholic and Orthodox as two sides of the same coin. 
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Mannyfit75
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The Orthodox Church break with Rome in 1054 AD. The original Church of Christ was called Catholic Church by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. This Bishop is the disciple of St. John the Apostle.
Before there was the break in 1054 the Church was One and it was Catholic. So like Pope Benedict XVI said, Jesus Christ only established One Church. The Orthodox lack one thing, the primacy of the Pope. They however, have Apostolic Succession which is partially complete.
Here is a quote from St. Ignatius o Antioch letter to the Smyrnaeans.
See that you all follow the bishop, even as **Jesus Christ **does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
There has been discussion for unification between the both Orthodox and Catholic Church. Some of these discussion lead to the 22 Eastern Byzantine Rite Catholic Church who were once separated from Rome. 500 years after the Schism 22 Eastern Christian Churches were united with Rome. This is according to Fr. Loya, an Byzantine Rite Catholic Priest.
You should. Jesus established One Church. He build His Church Upone Peter, the First Pope. Jesus is the Head of the Catholic Church, and the Pope is His Vicar or Representive until he returns in Glory.
Protestantism is just a fragmented Christian sect which has over 33,000 denominations. The disorganization of Protestantism lacks stability in teaching of moral and faith. Some even went the liberty to ordain gay bishops.
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mozart-250
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Catholic at the time of St. Ignatius of Antioch meant Universal. Both the Catholics and the Orthodox claim their denominations are the Universal church of St. Ignatius. Just because one denomination retains the name Catholic today does not prove its case versus the other.
Of course the Orthodox argue that you are the ones that broke from the Universal church. Like most things, neither of you can prove your case.
And there are discussions on these fora, but it doesn’t mean anything is accomplished. When these discussions provide resolution to the disagreement, then the Catholic apologetic claim that they are the “One True Church” will at least be internally consistent and point to only one denomination.
Protestantism is a meaningless term since there is no denomination called “Protestant”. It is just a bucket term to classify denominations that are not Catholic or Orthodox.
And if you add the Catholic and Orthodox denominations to the mix you get 33,002 denominations (oh the 33,000 number is quite suspect but I won’t argue that one).
Besides Protestant denominations (generally…I dunno if this is the case for all 234,567 denominations) do not claim for themselves “One True Church” status.
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Allweather
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I’m not very familiar with the entire Orthodox layout, but my understanding is that most of them are doctrinally identical, and liturgically very similar, to the western Church. In fact, I take this as an evidence of God’s guidance of both sides… the two lungs of the same being idea. Since they retained their Apostolic succession, (unlike the Protestants who kicked out their priests), they’ve remained Catholic for the 1000 years since the schism. That is quite something when you consider it! Especially in the absence of a strong central authority. One would have thought that a loose-knit arrangement of farstrung bishoprics would lead to many heresies and splits, but evidently this has not happened. Or maybe it has, but my ignorance is pervasive.
I don’t think there is much of a case to prove on either side. The issues that were meaningful 1000 years ago no longer are. There are many factors that will enter in to reunification, but that will be a process that could take another century or two to work out. These things move very slowly.
My understanding is that the disagreements are very minor. Nothing remotely similar to the theological problems between Catholics and Protestants. We share theology with the Orthodox, and reunification will take place when the time is right. The time isn’t right this year, but when the time is right, it will happen.
While there is a wide variety of theological position among Protestants, there are more similarities than differences. It is possible to see a thread running through all of them, even through the non-Christian offshoots of them, like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I agree that the 33k number is exaggerated, but this is a number that assumes that each non-denom group is a separate denomination. I think that that could be argued both ways, but my own feeling is that most of the non-denom groups are virtually identical to one another.
Some do. They may not always use the term “One True Church” but they definitely believe themselves to be the OTC. I was a pentecostal for awhile in a very strict denomination. Most sermons I heard included comments about how all the other Protestants who didn’t speak in tongues were on the way to Hell, and the Catholics, well, they are so out of whack they may not even be good enough for Hell!
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mozart-250
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From browsing the “Eastern Forum” I am not sure they are minor.
For one thing they do not believe that the Catholic pope is incapable of being wrong when speaking on faith and morals.
Second they do not believe in the Immaculate Conception (they believe in some type of pure Mary but not conceived without original sin).
So here are two dogmas that need to be overturned before reunification. Or the Orthodox would have to compromise.
There might be more, but those two stick out at first glance.
I dunno about that. The only one that I can come up with is that they are not Catholic or Orthodox. Every other one I can come up with exceptions. Maybe if I gave this some more thought I could come up with more.
Oneness Pentecostal I might guess…maybe United Pentecostal Church. Don’t take this as damning with faint praise but you are definitely better off Catholic.
You are right that a small minority do claim “One True Church” status for themselves. They are invariably very wierd.
FWIW.
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Contarini
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I agree with the last sentence, of course, but not the first. Ignatius was clearly writing in disagreement with other people who also claimed to be Christians. By “Catholic” he meant a specific subdivision within the broader spectrum of people claiming to believe in Jesus. That is what the term has always meant–it’s just that all Christians living today derive their heritage from the “Catholic Church” of which Ignatius was speaking.
Edwin
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cathgal
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I think 2 lungs apply to Eastern and Western Catholic. The Orthodox is more of a sister Church.
We’re almost similiar in doctrine except for one moral teaching. Contraception.
They accept is. It’s allowed.
The Catholic Church never allows it…ever.
So it’s either right or it ain’t.
But reason tells me it ain’t ever right.
More meat to the Catholic Church for being the true Church.
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cathgal
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Does this imply that the Pope has never been wrong on faith and morals?
Why not worry about it when it happens. 2000+ years. That’s a loooong time to not have been wrong on faith and morals, don’t you think?
I think there is only one great barrier for unification. They’d never accept the supremacy of the Pope. It’d take great humility for that to happen. Even the the Protestant can’t do it much less the Orthodox and they have more credentials.
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Allweather
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The dogma of papal infallibility is more complex than just saying he is incapable of being wrong on faith and morals. StilI, since papal authority is one of the major bones of contention, then it undoubtedly is true that this issue will take a lot of time to resolve.
Last year when Benedict traveled to Turkey, I watched most of the TV coverage. I seem to recall a comment being made that the Orthodox population in Turkey is very, very small. Obviously, Turkey being overwhelmingly moslem, those Catholics there must feel a bit under the gun, so to speak. Maybe this situation they’re in could help them to move in Rome’s direction.
I don’t personally know any Orthodox people, but I’ve read that the Orthodox have criticized the western Church for diminishing veneration of Mary. I’ve been told that, anyone who thinks that Roman Catholics over-venerate Mary, they should see how the Orthodox do it. But, I’ve never been in an Orthodox church or to one of their Masses, so I don’t know from personal experience, but only by reading. If this is true, then perhaps a disagreement over Immaculate Conception would be fairly easy to resolve.
“Reunification” may be too strong a word. I doubt it would be similar to the reunification of the two Germanys, or the two Koreas, which take place in a relatively short period of time. More likely, dialog between leaders and theologians will happen over a long spell, decades, maybe the next hundred years or more, and gradually the two sides will grow closer together for many reasons. Those eastern bishops will still be bishops, their priests will still be priests, their liturgies and organizations will be unaffected. It wouldn’t be like one day they woke up and found themselves with photographs of the Pope on their walls, LOL. More like old generations of diehards on both sides passing away to make way for new generations of people who are less inclined to be hardheaded.
Wow! Good guess. I only spent a year with them, though. Fine people, but it just wasn’t for me.
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mozart-250
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There is a great big difference between not being wrong and being incapable of being wrong.
I have in my lifetime gotten 100% on math tests (yeah I know a broken watch is right twice a day). That does not mean that I am incapable of being wrong in math.
As far as I know the Orthodox believe the Pope has been wrong at least twice;
- When he said that the Pope is incapable of being wrong when speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals.
- They do not totally accept the immaculate conception as presented by the Catholic denomination.
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Ahimsa
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Ain’t gonna happen.
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Allweather
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Infallibility is very limited, and thoroughly defined. Here is a lengthy article from the Catholic Encyclopedia which should prove convincing since it offers many proofs of infallibility, including from Scripture:
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
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cathgal
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Your content doesn’t say anything about the Pope having been wrong in faith and morals
To state that they don’t accept the immaculate conception doctrine is equiv to the protestants not accepting it.
You do not understand what is meant by the ‘Pope is incapable of of being wrong in faith and morals.’
What is meant is that thoughout the history of the Church, there has never been a contradiction between the teachings of the past and now concerning faith and morals.
Your math tests has nothing to do w/ faith and morals!
You have alot to learn …:coffeeread:
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RevDrNorth
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Actually, the Roman Catholics broke with the Church established by Christ leaving just the Orthodox Church). Roman Catholics developed innovative doctrines and attempted to have Rome assert authority and dominance over all of Chistendom (temporal power grab as demonstrated by Cardinal Humberto’s unChristian acts during the Divine Liturgy…tsk…tsk). Then the RCC birthed other schismatic sects.
Only the Orthodox Church has maintained the faith from the time of the Church’s establishment by Christ. That certainly does NOT imply others are not going to heaven or are damned (etc). Juest that there is only one church established by Christ. As the Conciliar Press pamplet says (What is the Orthodox Church) says: The Western Church under the Pope separated itself. The Orthodox Church IS the living Body of Christ.
Maybe Benedict will swim the Bosphorous and return.:extrahappy:
Rev North
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Allweather
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Rev, what’s the deal with the Orthodox view of Immaculate Conception?
It has been said earlier that the Orthodox reject Immaculate Conception as defined by the Catholic Church in 1854. Is this true?
Is there a single location where one can go on the web to find out what Orthodox believe and why?
Also, I understand you’re an Episcopalian/Anglican. Are you just pulling our legs on this Orthodox thing?
It has been said earlier that the Orthodox reject Immaculate Conception as defined by the Catholic Church in 1854. Is this true?
Is there a single location where one can go on the web to find out what Orthodox believe and why?
Also, I understand you’re an Episcopalian/Anglican. Are you just pulling our legs on this Orthodox thing?
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Antwill
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Rev. North, you confuse me. First, you claim that the Orthodox Church is the true Church and the the CC split from it by citing a Orthodox pamphlet. Still, you are not a member of the Orthodox Church, but an Anglican.
Second, you don’t address the rebuttals to your claims that Christ did not establish a papacy by citing the dispute between Peter and Paul, even though I and several others have addressed this false claim.
Third, you have a quote in your signature line from Cardinal Newman, one of the great Catholic minds of modern times (even though he was Anglican first).
Again, with all due respect, maybe it is not I that is confused.
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Antwill
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Yes, do tell.
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RevDrNorth
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Well…I am having a bit of fun with folks but yes I am also debating swimming the Bosphorous. I have been studying Orthodoxy and find the faith fascinating and the argumentation for being the Church founded by Christ compelling. Their faith is well thought out based on scipture in light of tradition. It is intelligent, scriptural, apostolic and so on.Rev. North, you confuse me. First, you claim that the Orthodox Church is the true Church and the the CC split from it by citing a Orthodox pamphlet. Still, you are not a member of the Orthodox Church, but an Anglican.
Third, you have a quote in your signature line from Cardinal Newman, one of the great Catholic minds of modern times (even though he was Anglican first).
Again, with all due respect, maybe it is not I that is confused.
That is not to say it is without problems as it is filled with human beings. Also, I find it hard to let go of my Anglican sensibilities, style of worship and so on. That part of me is very culturally linked.
Rev North
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