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MariaG
Guest
I disagree.
However, this is not the topic of this thread and we should cease this discussion here
God Bless,
Maria
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However, this is not the topic of this thread and we should cease this discussion here
God Bless,
Maria
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jabelltulsa
Guest
Catholic turned Reformist turned regretest…
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jabelltulsa
Guest
J-bells Fiancee
One part of your thought process concerns me. where you say “Fortunately, God raised up a Martin Luther and the Church of Jesus Christ was still preserved and the Gates of Hell have not been able to prevail against it.” if this is true why so many off springs of the church Luther started. if God raised up a Martin Luther why have a John Wesley, John Calvin, Alexander Campbell. I hope my point is understood.
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jabelltulsa
Guest
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Ahimsa
Guest
Wesley came from the Anglicans. Calvin came from the French Catholics. Campbell came from the Presbyterians.
I don’t know of too many schisms from Lutheranism.
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Sixtus
Guest
Grace-seeker posted:
I pledge my 100% unanimous unqualified support and faith to the authority Christ in His teaching Magisterium with regard to all matters including doctrine and faith
Ahem…just for the record, I am NOT one of the apostacising heretics of which you speak
I pledge my 100% unanimous unqualified support and faith to the authority Christ in His teaching Magisterium with regard to all matters including doctrine and faith
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Ahimsa
Guest
You didn’t mention anything about the Pope. Are you sure you’re not a heretic?Grace-seeker posted:
Ahem…just for the record, I am NOT one of the apostacising heretics of which you speak
I pledge my 100% unanimous unqualified support and faith to the authority Christ in His teaching Magisterium with regard to all matters including doctrine and faith
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Sixtus
Guest
Are you serious
I specifically mentioned his Holiness and his Authority from Christ 
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jabelltulsa
Guest
Forgive, But I know what Churches they founded and that is the point they all founded separate churches with doctrine that makes them similar yet different. and my point is if God raised up Luther and the gates of hell have not prevailed, Why the varying denominations why do we have only one christian denomination for 1500 years (Schism included) and from the Reformation “God raising Luther up.” we now have new Denomination and off spring churches of the one true Christ springing up everyday creating dissention within christianity. So, My point was How have the Gates of Hell not prevailed agianst Luther and when you reply to me know that I am “Lutheran” born and raised.
and, please do not tell me that you do not think there is dissention.
J-bells fiancee
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jabelltulsa
Guest
also, so that I have addressed the actual OP statement. I agree I believe that it is GOOD that the Pope has reaffirmed for Catholics and the world that the catholic church is the one true church the one that can claim Apostolic succesion the one that Christ founded.
I think it is GOOD that the pope is creating a unification within the Church.
and Making a much needed unfavorable public Affirmation.
J-bells Fiancee
I think it is GOOD that the pope is creating a unification within the Church.
and Making a much needed unfavorable public Affirmation.
J-bells Fiancee
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
Luther was responding to a crisis in the Church of his day:
‘For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form–the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution. It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation.’
In this situation, the Church was neglecting its role of shepherding the flock, of feeding the sheep, of carrying for the lambs of God. You may have a distaste for how Luther went about it, he certainly made some errors, but at least he brought the Church back to making the main thing the main thing. I believe that the disruption cause by that anarchist is the very means used by God to prevent the gates of Hell from prevailing against his Church.
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estesbob
Guest
You dont solve a crisis in the Church by rejecting centuries old Doctrines and teachings and creating previoulsy unknown doctrines that are not compatible with the Church he left. Luther used the corruption in the church for his own benefit(and for the benefit of the German Prices who backed him) To try and read something noble into his actions is a complete distortion of History.
The ironic part is that the Porestants quickly fell into corruption themsleves-leading to a “revolt” in Germany and massive persecution of Catholics, includint seizing without compensation, churchs and Monestaries in Britain and other Protestant countries.
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Contarini
Guest
I think you are quoting Ratzinger, right?
Anyway, this is somewhat exaggerated, since the schism had been over a century before Luther’s time. However, the point stands that the Church was in an ecclesiological crisis–the papacy had reasserted its power but without much spiritual credibility.
Showing that Luther was responding to a real crisis, though, does not prove that his answer was the right one. For all the crisis of the schism, the Western Church had restored visible unity. (The main example the Reformers used to demonstrate the disunity of the Church was actually not the papal schism of the late 14th century but the endless conflict among religious orders.) The Reformation shattered that hard-won and fragile unity, and this is serious business.
Edwin
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
The very same.
I didn’t read anything noble into Luther’s actions. In fact I said he was an anarchist. But I do believe that he was nonetheless right, and that he was used by God despite his own predilictions to grandiose behavior. If the Pope would have only listened instead of insisting that none dared to challenge him, the whole mess would have been avoided. You want to go laying blame for the reformation at someone’s feet, don’t blame the messenger who pointed out all the rottenness, blame the one who failed in his role to shepherd the Church to begin with.
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jabelltulsa
Guest
how do you believe that Luther gained certainty of Salvation by breaking away? do you believe there is less confusion in today’s Christian environment then there was in Luther’s day? I can not make the leap from Several Catholic/Orthodox Churches debating Primacy to Hundreds of Christian denominations causing us to as you say “making the main thing the main thing.” Can you please elaborate on what the main thing is and how we might have certainty of salvation because of Luther’s actions.
Thank You,
J-bells Fiance.
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onenow1
Guest
HI,
Hebrews 13:17.“Obey your superiors and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls; so that you may do this with joy, and not with grief, for that would not be expedient for you.”
Luther was warned by the Church in June 1520, in the Papal Bull “Exsurge Domine”. The Church did everything it could to reconcile with him but he refused, thus setting the stage for his self ex-communication. He was formally ex-communicated on January 3, 1521 through the Papal Bull ‘Decet Romanum Pontificem’.
Now for someone who humbled himself by admitting that he took the ‘Word of GOD’ from the Catholic Church, he still proceeded to ‘modify’ it without having any authority to do so.
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet”
dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet" De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
Peace,OneNow1:coffeeread:
PS. I guess vows did’nt mean much to Luther.
Hebrews 13:17.“Obey your superiors and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls; so that you may do this with joy, and not with grief, for that would not be expedient for you.”
Luther was warned by the Church in June 1520, in the Papal Bull “Exsurge Domine”. The Church did everything it could to reconcile with him but he refused, thus setting the stage for his self ex-communication. He was formally ex-communicated on January 3, 1521 through the Papal Bull ‘Decet Romanum Pontificem’.
Now for someone who humbled himself by admitting that he took the ‘Word of GOD’ from the Catholic Church, he still proceeded to ‘modify’ it without having any authority to do so.
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet”
dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet" De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
Peace,OneNow1:coffeeread:
PS. I guess vows did’nt mean much to Luther.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
Well, the main thing is NOT who is the chief cook and bottle washer. NOR the chief interpreter of the faith. The main thing is if we are following Jesus or not. The church is to help us in this endeavor. In Luther’s day the Church was getting in the way of just that by imposing so many other things on the people that really were incidental to the faith. We still have a tendency to do that today, but we are also reminded that our salvation is not tied up in those things, but in the faith we place in Jesus Christ. If we have Jesus (or perhaps better worded, if Jesus has us) we are saved, that is where our security lays.
I think that Catholic, protestant, Orthodox, and whoever else is out there all proclaim that message more clearly now than the Church did in 1499.
And recall, also, who it was that wrote: “the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.” Those weren’t my words, but the words of Cardinal Ratzinger.
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mtr01
Guest
Since I have Gregory the Great on the brain, it seems he would disagree with you:
Not to mention, Mikhail Emmanualovich Posnov (Russian Orthodox Church historian) wrote in The History of the Christian Church Until the Great Schism of 1054,
Not to mention my earlier posts showing that Pope Celestine gave Cyril (Patriarch of Alexandria) Rome’s authority to depose Nestorius (Patriarch of Constantinople). And not only did Cyril accept this, he carried out his commission by the pope.
Indeed, the primacy and universal jurisdiction of the pope were known and accepted at least by the 4th century.
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AlegreFe
Guest
I’m a little late in the game/thread here and I haven’t read the rest of the thread after this post (no time) but I’d like to say that Jesus was not protesting the “teaching” of the Pharisees, he was protesting their actions. After all, Jesus did say, “do as they say, not as they do.”
Matthew 23:1-3 (ESV)
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat,
3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you—
but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
So your theory, whatever it may have been, is out the window… sorry.
If I was teaching a CCD class and taught the kids all the correct teachings of Jesus Christ, which is what the Catholic Church does, but was not actually living that way, that does not mean that the teachings are wrong… it only means that my living is wrong and Jesus would consider me a hypocrite.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The problem with Luther was that he decided by his own free will to leave the Catholic Church instead of trying purify the Church like what St. Francis of Assisi.
I was reading Martin Luther’s life. He wasn’t a saintly person compared to the lives of the saints, who were truly humble to the Church.
Martin Luther was a selfish man. He wanted things his way. He got married to the woman he loved, a former nun. He was granted safe haven by those who had a dislike the Church.
He wrote articles encouraging the destruction of Jewish homes. Nothing good came out of Martin Luther. He was just another heretic.
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