Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

[LeafByNiggle]

@ Leaf - I have read it and posted it earlier in this thread. I am raising the idea that Catholics are failing to lead the world in pacifist non-violent means to end conflict.

That’s because such pacifism is not part of Catholic doctrine. It should not be surprising that the Church is not leading with that doctrine since it is not our doctrine.

It makes me doubt the sincerity of the divine inspiration that would lead somebody to write the Just War Doctrine given the other alternative - peaceful resistance.

Pure pacifism may be more in line with your idea of what is divinely inspired, but you cannot expect everyone to feel that way too.

Look to the Religious Society of Friends Peace Testimony.

Well, if you like the Quaker doctrines, that is your choice. It is not mine.

That to me seems inspired by a sincere form of faith. It would be really impressive if the Pope wrote an encyclical denouncing the Just War Doctrine for this one.

It would not be impressive, except maybe to Quakers. Catholic practice and traditions can change, but Catholic doctrine, such as the Just War doctrine, cannot be completely repealed.

 

[Herbert_West]

How does that end the threat? Look at the 1943 Warsaw uprising for example, that was a valid attempt the end the threat by the Nazi’s to Jewish life. How would boarding the cattle cars to Auschwitz have ended the threat to Jewish life?

Or having a police officer take a bullet to the chest from a gangster, how would that prevent the gangster from killing others?

Little bit of a threadjack but…

Maybe the Catholic Center Party could have rejected the deal the Nazis gave them?

Maybe the Pope could have excommunicated the Catholic Nazis.

Maybe the vast majority of Christians could have realized that their treatment of the European Jewish population (as mandated through papal encyclicals which were at best schizophrenic and at its worst purely evil) fell far short of the teachings of your Christ.

Just read this filth…

Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on June 14, 1751

And compare it to Gregory X

So I wouldn’t use the Nazis as a justification for the legitimacy of the Just War Doctrine. Christian hands are too bloody for that to really work.

 

[Herbert_West]

That’s because such pacifism is not part of Catholic doctrine. It should not be surprising that the Church is not leading with that doctrine since it is not our doctrine.

Pure pacifism may be more in line with your idea of what is divinely inspired, but you cannot expect everyone to feel that way too.

Well, if you like the Quaker doctrines, that is your choice. It is not mine.

It would not be impressive, except maybe to Quakers. Catholic practice and traditions can change, but Catholic doctrine, such as the Just War doctrine, cannot be completely repealed.

I think the shift on slavery was far more profound than rejecting the Just War Doctrine and adopting something more peaceful since that is more in line with the New Testament.

 

[Brendan]

@ Leaf - I have read it and posted it earlier in this thread. I am raising the idea that Catholics are failing to lead the world in pacifist non-violent means to end conflict.

We cannot do so, as that would be contrary to the Revelations that God has given to the Church, both in Sacred Scripture and in Sacred Tradition

Little bit of a threadjack but…

Maybe the Catholic Center Party could have rejected the deal the Nazis gave them?

Maybe the Pope could have excommunicated the Catholic Nazis.

That still does not answer the question, how would the Jews acting in a non-violent manner have ended the attacks? Did they not have a right, even an obligation, to defend themselves? How would boarding the cattle cars in a non violent way, ended the attacks on themselves?

You made this statement

Isn’t the best way to defend a life to sacrifice your own rather than killing the threat?.

Now defend it, how would the Jews sacrificing their own lives have ended the threat?

How would a police officer sacrificing his life end the threat of an armed gangster or drug lord?

 

[Herbert_West]

Brendan, you are right. My focus was on Christians defending the Jews rather than seeing the Jews as agents in their own defense.

Pacifism would have resulted in more death, but maybe not complete annihilation. It is possible that it could have affected some Nazis to stop, but look what the Catholics did to the natives of Ayiti (aka Hispaniola aka Haiti and the Dominican Republic). They pretty much wiped them out.

 

[LongingSoul]

He has no need to ‘challenge’ the Swiss Guard, he is their direct commander. One simple statement from him and the Swiss Guard can be disbanded, or disarmed, and their weapons melted down.

He has not done this, do you consider his words to be hypocritical then?

He is challenging attitudes. He is challenging agendas. He is challenging the status quo that argues that this is the best way… there is no better way.

When the world realised the damage that fossil fuels caused, attitudes began to change and people began to explore alternatives. It’s a process of transition. It’d be idiotic to suddenly stop using cars and shutting down industry. It starts with challenging the attitudes that are driven by profit and other agendas who are driven to say screw the consequences of what we do. The fossil fuel industry is another example of how greed hampers change for the good.

Another example of a greedy industry is the pharmaceuticals. Back in the 70’s, my father was President of a Knights of the Southern Cross chapter at a time when the pill was a growing market. The Knights (around the world at the time) were going after a pharma company that had bought up the rights to a litmus paper being developed for fertility testing… the company had bought up the rights and then just shelved the product because it was more profitable to push the pill on women. That’s an example of how an industry protects profits. They are the ones who need to be targeted, not the users. They have the power to influence the state of the nation with their products.

Not in this regard then, he still maintains a Vatican armory, filled with assault rifles and other military gear.

All of which we purchased with Vatican funds.

What’s the point of suddenly disarming the whole world. That’s not the way. It’s about challenging the attitudes that feed greed. I read that the United States has only just recently disarmed its last cold war monster missile. The disarmament started with courageous leaders supporting it. It was a leap of faith and took trust. We no longer live under daily threat of nuclear annihilation with the push of one button. Good job.

 

[Tomdstone]

He is challenging attitudes. He is challenging agendas. He is challenging the status quo that argues that this is the best way… there is no better way.

When the world realised the damage that fossil fuels caused, attitudes began to change and people began to explore alternatives. It’s a process of transition. It’d be idiotic to suddenly stop using cars and shutting down industry. It starts with challenging the attitudes that are driven by profit and other agendas who are driven to say screw the consequences of what we do. The fossil fuel industry is another example of how greed hampers change for the good.

Another example of a greedy industry is the pharmaceuticals. Back in the 70’s, my father was President of a Knights of the Southern Cross chapter at a time when the pill was a growing market. The Knights (around the world at the time) were going after a pharma company that had bought up the rights to a litmus paper being developed for fertility testing… the company had bought up the rights and then just shelved the product because it was more profitable to push the pill on women. That’s an example of how an industry protects profits. They are the ones who need to be targeted, not the users. They have the power to influence the state of the nation with their products.

What’s the point of suddenly disarming the whole world. That’s not the way. It’s about challenging the attitudes that feed greed. I read that the United States has only just recently disarmed its last cold war monster missile. The disarmament started with courageous leaders supporting it. It was a leap of faith and took trust. We no longer live under daily threat of nuclear annihilation with the push of one button. Good job.

The US and other countries still have huge supplies of nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons ready to be used at a moment’s notice.

 

[Tbrightson]

That to me seems inspired by a sincere form of faith. It would be really impressive if the Pope wrote an encyclical denouncing the Just War Doctrine for this one.

I would find it not impressive but rather confusing if he did since he has called for military action against ISIS and felt the Allies should have bombed some railroad tracks in WWII

 

[Tbrightson]

"The Pope told the crowds gathered in St Peter’s Square that people producing weapons of war are “merchants of death”. “One day everything comes to an end and they will be held accountable to God,” he said.

And wouldn’t those who purchase those weapons, like the Vatican, complicit? Will they have to be accountable too? Or do they get a pass?

So if the Allies did bomb the railways to Auschwitz like to Pope wanted, would the manufacturers of those bombs get an indulgence or something?

 

[Herbert_West]

"The Pope told the crowds gathered in St Peter’s Square that people producing weapons of war are “merchants of death”. “One day everything comes to an end and they will be held accountable to God,” he said.

And wouldn’t those who purchase those weapons, like the Vatican, complicit? Will they have to be accountable too? Or do they get a pass?

So if the Allies did bomb the railways to Auschwitz like to Pope wanted, would the manufacturers of those bombs get an indulgence or something?

Good point.

 

[LongingSoul]

The US and other countries still have huge supplies of nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons ready to be used at a moment’s notice.

Are you saying that cold war disarmament was a fake?

 

[Suudy]

The US and other countries still have huge supplies of nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons ready to be used at a moment’s notice.

And the US has used them how many times since 1945? They may be “ready to be used at a moment’s notice,” but I don’t think we have to worry about the US’s nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons being used anytime soon. Indeed, I think of any military power, the US is the least likely to use such weapons.

 

[graciew]

So if the Allies did bomb the railways to Auschwitz like to Pope wanted, would the manufacturers of those bombs get an indulgence or something?

They would have gone against objects in the first place.
Jesus did not go against persons but objects. He took his time to make a whip of cords,the noise scattered animals,he opened the cages and set the doves free and then overturned tables. And spoilt their business.
Not talking about indulgences here just going through what Jesus did .
It does make sense

 

[Tomdstone]

They may be “ready to be used at a moment’s notice,” but I don’t think we have to worry about the US’s nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons being used anytime soon.

How can you be sure that these weapons will not get into the wrong hands?

 

[Exiled_Child]

How can you be sure that these weapons will not get into the wrong hands?

I wonder if the Pope didn’t have someone like Sir Basil Zaharoff in mind when he made his weapons manufacturers remark?

He has an extremely lively and colorful bio, for those unfamiliar with him:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Zaharoff

smithsonianmag.com/history/the-mysterious-mr-zedzed-the-wickedest-man-in-the-world-97435790/?no-ist

Also, and I haven’t read this entire thread, isn’t it probable that the Pope would be quite well informed about the various modern-day Zaharoffs who undoubtedly exist? It seems to me that the Pope is in a position to be much better informed than the rest of us, and as one of the few people truly in the know, his thoughts might be incomprehensible to us, but entirely reasonable nonetheless. Just a possibility.

 

[Brendan]

The US and other countries still have huge supplies of nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons ready to be used at a moment’s notice.

FYI, the US biological weapons program was cancelled in 1969 by Nixon, and the destruction of the stockpiles was finished by 1973

For Chemical weapons, that program ended in 1997, with final destruction of the stockpiles completed in 2012

cdc.gov/nceh/demil/history.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_biological_weapons_program#End_of_the_program_.281969-73.29

 

[zz912]

Then why does the Pope buy them? As noted in this thread, the Swiss Guard carry weapons. The Vatican has a very well stocked armory, including assault rifles and sniper rifles.

Every single one purchased from an arms manufacturer.

Thus one can legitimately say that the ‘very defense’ of the Holy Father REQUIRES the purchase of arms

You silly silly man! We all know that those are really WATER guns, not real weapons!

 

[zz912]

I never understood why the Vatican has that type of security either. What does it matter to a Catholic if he lives or dies, much less the Pope? Isn’t the reward of being a true Catholic a chance to hang with God for eternity in bliss?

The focus on this life to me by believers reveals a lack of commitment on their part.

So why aren’t all Catholics committed to non-violence?

Catholicism is not a religion of pacifism.

Why is Ghandi a greater example of Christianity than many Catholics?

He’s not.

 

[zz912]

Why don’t you think that he is challenging everyones attitude including the Vatican machine? He’s done that before numerous times because of the ingrained attitudes of Vatican insiders who’ve been hard to topple. What’s wrong with wanting a world that doesn’t have to resort to weapons for defense rather than accepting that we all need to be armed to live a normal life?

Weapons have been a part of human existence from the beginning. The fallen nature of man requires it. Evil men will attack and conquer those who are unarmed.

 

[zz912]

They would have gone against objects in the first place.
Jesus did not go against persons but objects. He took his time to make a whip of cords,the noise scattered animals,he opened the cages and set the doves free and then overturned tables. And spoilt their business.
Not talking about indulgences here just going through what Jesus did .
It does make sense

Jesus made a weapon and used it. The Bible doesn’t explicitly say He struck people with the whip, but He drove the animals and people from the Temple area. Common sense tells us that people aren’t driven from an area by someone popping a whip in the air.

You also seem to forget that Jesus commanded His apostles to buy a sword.