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Robert_Bay
Guest
What is in the title is not in the article. Thread closed until a better quote of what actually was said, in context, is found.
Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian
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ARSpade
Guest
Sig, Glock, HK, and Steyr. Currently. The Armoury is quite impressive in scope and history.
He complains about weapons and then complains the Allies didn’t use weapons to stop the Holocaust fast enough. Kind of a disconnect there.
And I’ll go to work tomorrow and essentially make weapons. Weapons that have done more to protect people from ISIS than the Vatican has.
He complains about weapons and then complains the Allies didn’t use weapons to stop the Holocaust fast enough. Kind of a disconnect there.
And I’ll go to work tomorrow and essentially make weapons. Weapons that have done more to protect people from ISIS than the Vatican has.
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Tomdstone
Guest
This makes a lot of sense to me.
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JimmyG88
Guest
Is this sort of criticism of the Supreme Pontiff allowed on this public website.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
We will know tomorrow if the thread is closed!
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CaptFun
Guest
Sometimes when Pope Francis speaks “off the cuff” he has “who am I to judge” sentiments. And sometimes he says things in a rather more declarative tone.
I don’t know who was supposed to have manufactured the swords Jesus recommended the apostles to get … unto the selling of cloaks even … but technically, yes, they couldn’t have been Christians as the Church wasn’t formalized until Pentecost.
The apostles had two. Told Jesus they did. He didn’t change his teaching to one of disarmament but he did appear to approve an arms reduction (presuming that all of the apostles had a second cloak … this would have reduced the recommended purchase amount from 12 to 2!) or an arms freeze (they already had two … he said “enough”).
This might possibly have been more of a pro-cloak concession than an anti-sword proclamation for all I know.
CaptFun is not a real Captain. The nickname was for other reasons. But I did work in Aerospace/Defense Plants … and while I was mostly just an editor of tech manuals and the company paper … my company manufactured weapons.
AND I considered myself Christian. Never confessed my employment there as a sin. And probably won’t now.
As usual, upon further reading, it appears the Pope was victimized again by creative paraphrase presentation in the headline … though it seemed to me his counsel and warnings against investments in company’s that make implements of war should be judiciously considered by those that do so. <MY paraphrase … which may NOT actually be an accurate description of the Pope’s views … just how the information (honestly) struck me. The Apostle Paul had that Francis/misunderstood/distorted kind of problem (see 2 Peter 3:15ff below)
If one is a sexually active gay AND working for a weapons manufacturer? WHICH is the greater sin? Are both MORTAL sins? Neither? One and NOT the other?
By the way … I am neither now, and am not and was never … the first thing :coolinoff:As the Pontiff uses social media more and seems constantly in the news on an amazing array of subjects from the spiritual to the mundane - maybe he should have a weekly TV program on EWTN
– to explain in laymans terms some of the more “difficult to understand” things
– he’s either said, REPORTED to have said, or misreported to have said … in English*
They could call the phone-in show ***Francis for Answers ***
*the translator should not have studied so much non-Christian philosophy in his Seminary years that he cannot now but “season” the Pope’s words with secular proverbs in each interpretation.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P129.HTM#BD < SCRIPTURES in this post are copied from this link and site.
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JimmyG88
Guest
I think it’s going a bit far to try to use scripture to contradict the Pope. And bringing the subject of homosexuality into it smacks of a desperate attempt to muddy the waters.Sometimes when Pope Francis speaks “off the cuff” he has “who am I to judge” sentiments. And sometimes he says things in a rather more declarative tone.
I don’t know who was supposed to have manufactured the swords Jesus recommended the apostles to get … unto the selling of cloaks even … but technically, yes, they couldn’t have been Christians as the Church wasn’t formalized until Pentecost.
The apostles had two. Told Jesus they did. He didn’t change his teaching to one of disarmament but he did appear to approve an arms reduction (presuming that all of the apostles had a second cloak … this would have reduced the recommended purchase amount from 12 to 2!) or an arms freeze (they already had two … he said “enough”).
This might possibly have been more of a pro-cloak concession than an anti-sword proclamation for all I know.
CaptFun is not a real Captain. The nickname was for other reasons. But I did work in Aerospace/Defense Plants … and while I was mostly just an editor of tech manuals and the company paper … my company manufactured weapons.
AND I considered myself Christian. Never confessed my employment there as a sin. And probably won’t now.
As usual, upon further reading, it appears the Pope was victimized again by creative paraphrase presentation in the headline … though it seemed to me his counsel and warnings against investments in company’s that make implements of war should be judiciously considered by those that do so. <MY paraphrase … which may NOT actually be an accurate description of the Pope’s views … just how the information (honestly) struck me. The Apostle Paul had that Francis/misunderstood/distorted kind of problem (see 2 Peter 3:15ff below)
If one is a sexually active gay AND working for a weapons manufacturer? WHICH is the greater sin? Are both MORTAL sins? Neither? One and NOT the other?
As the Pontiff uses social media more and seems constantly in the news on an amazing array of subjects from the spiritual to the mundane - maybe he should have a weekly TV program on EWTN
– to explain in laymans terms some of the more “difficult to understand” things
– he’s either said, REPORTED to have said, or misreported to have said … in English*
They could call the phone-in show ***Francis for Answers ***
*the translator should not have studied so much non-Christian philosophy in his Seminary years that he cannot now but “season” the Pope’s words with secular proverbs in each interpretation.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P129.HTM#BD < SCRIPTURES in this post are copied from this link and site.
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BillTheSlink
Guest
Sorry, but the Holy Pontiff is only infallible when he has declared he is speaking from the throne, and then only in matters of faith and morals. To his statement I call bologna if he really said this and wasn’t taken out of context. The only man who was truly infallible in EVERYTHING he said and did was Jesus, and at one point he told his disciples it was more important to have a sword than to have a coat, to which the first Pope replied they had two swords which was the equivalent of two assault rifles in his day.
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BillTheSlink
Guest
I also have to ask those who believe everything a Pope says regardless of whether he is speaking from the throne in an explicit statement he’s speaking from the throne and it’s on a matter of faith and morals, was Pope Benedict IX who was elected somewhere between the ages of 10-18–most likely 13, and was a known homosexual who had open sex parties in the Lateran palace, sold the Papacy only to get it back again, and was so mad that when he was crowned he went screaming down the halls, “I am Caesar! I am Jesus Christ!”, was he right too?: Was he Jesus and Caesar? eek: The Pope is always the Pope, but his area of infallibility is very limited in scope and he is not immune to constructive criticism of his statements. I will always be loyal to The Pope, but unless he is acting within his powers I don’t have to agree or obey.
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CaptFun
Guest
I didn’t try to use those scriptures, they occurred to me immediately upon reading this thread’s unfortunate headline from a secular newspaper (that I am a little skeptical about the accuracy of).
Did I contradict the Pope? He didn’t exactly say what the headline paraphrases him as saying.
My observations were also about Jesus’ admonition for the apostles to buy swords *(manufactured by someone I deduce - though I don’t think this observation need be seen as a “contradiction” of Francis nor a “characterization” of Jesus as recommending the apostles to invest with weapons manufacturers) * which is as hard for some to understand for some – as Francis is to others, here.
Francis’ “who am I to judge?” line came when he was being questioned about homosexuals or homosexuality. Quite a different sentiment and message than " … can’t call themselves Christian."
Why not similar tolerance for weapons manufacturers (topic of this thread) especially since Jesus never excluded them from the gospel in his “go teach the nations” commission? OR why not similar concerned counsel toward repentance and reconciliation of practicing homosexuals when the church has clearly identified certain mortal sins as being dangerous to any practitioners’ immortal souls?
The contrast I noted and reported. Even though I was stung more than I should have been by the headline – as what Francis *actually * said seemed different and more understandable and probably not directed at people like I was – for the most part.
My counsel to Francis is … be careful. Better yet, I’ll presume to quote Jesus again (since He says the “be careful” things much better). Even if I misapply it somehow < (not my intention :nope
, HIS words, as He is " … the way, and the truth, and the light …" will certainly benefit all who read them, in some way. Meanwhile, thank you for your counsel … there is probably more good in it than I see immediately. Perhaps I should consider some of my own “be careful” counsel in my own case too?
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anonymous_in_fl
Guest
Guns are needed by hunters, police, and everyday people for protecting their families and homes. I dont see the disparity.
Maybe what the Pope said was poorly translated?
Maybe what the Pope said was poorly translated?
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JimmyG88
Guest
‘Everyday People’ don’t carry firearms all over the world. The USA has a gun culture which isn’t shared by everyone else on earth
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pnewton
Guest
Just note the parts that is in quotes and the parts that are not. The headline is a lie, surprise, surprise. This is why we should not get Church news from the media.
The quote was, " That leads to a bit a distrust, doesn’t it?" He was criticizing the weapons industry (as it currently is), not self-defense.
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agnes_therese
Guest
Personal opinion only: there’s a difference between criticism/disagreement on the one hand, and disrespect on the other. Disagreement is allowed. Disrespect shouldn’t be.
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Johann_du_Toit
Guest
That raises an interesting question.
None of the Holy Father’s speeches he has given thus far have been in english.
How many times have the (let wing) english speaking media ( deliberately distorted the Holy Father’s words to give an ideological slant to his words that he never intended?
Especially yahoo, which has a history of deliberately distorting and misrepresenting the Church and it’s teachings in it’s headlines (long before Pope Francis assumed office).
Take the episode where the Holy Father was reported to call Mahmoud Abbas a “prince of peace”. What he actually said to Abbas was “go forth and be a prince of peace”. Big distortion of his words.
I mean, the headline itself in this post is misleading as it’s exact words are not attributed to the Pope.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
You don’t believe police or soldiers should have weapons?
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ProVobis
Guest
Or poorly understood, as was Populorum Progressio, especially with its conscience clause.
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phil19034
Guest
There is a difference between manufactures who make weapons designed for hunting and basic self-defense vs. those who’s goal is to encourage war.
Intent is the important thing here. Weapons manufacture’s goal to provide guns for hunting and protecting families is very different from the weapons manufacture who makes weapons of mass destruction and who lets them get into the hands of people who would abuse them. Also, the maker of armor piercing rounds (aka Cop Killers) have ONE goal when they make those… Kill people.
Big difference between making “cop killers,” chemical weapons, biological weapons, etc vs making a rifle designed to hunt deer or for self (national) defense.
Finally - once again, we have to STOP viewing everything the Pope says from an American point of view. Guns are not as prevalent in other 1st world nations as they are in the US. In some nations, even the police do not have to carry guns.
Intent is the important thing here. Weapons manufacture’s goal to provide guns for hunting and protecting families is very different from the weapons manufacture who makes weapons of mass destruction and who lets them get into the hands of people who would abuse them. Also, the maker of armor piercing rounds (aka Cop Killers) have ONE goal when they make those… Kill people.
Big difference between making “cop killers,” chemical weapons, biological weapons, etc vs making a rifle designed to hunt deer or for self (national) defense.
Finally - once again, we have to STOP viewing everything the Pope says from an American point of view. Guns are not as prevalent in other 1st world nations as they are in the US. In some nations, even the police do not have to carry guns.
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friardchips
Guest
The Vatican has done a lot to speak out against ISIS and also said the silence over this tyranny is wilful. Not enough has been done by the countries who claim to be powerful.
Pope Francis is not speaking about weapons we already have to defend from the ones already made and sold to war criminals; he is talking about weapons which continue to be made and to be sold, with no moral ethic, thus increasing an already massive world-wide epidemic of violence.
Another case of people laying into Pope Francis without properly discerning his words.
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friardchips
Guest
Good article, except I don’t see how a Christian could ever justify killing animals, especially majestic animals such as deer, for sport - this is bloodlust.
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