Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

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gilliam said:
OK, so this is what he actually said,… There is the hypocrisy of speaking about peace and producing arms, and even selling weapons to this one, who is at war with that one, and to that one who is at war with this!”
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I agree 100% with this. Selling arms to both sides only exacerbates the conflict. The goal should be peace, not war.
 
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Some people are using this topic to take pot shots (no pun intended) at the Holy Father. That is uncharitable and not allowed at the site. Either discuss the topic of the original post charitably or don’t post. If you insist on making derogatory statements against the Holy Father on any forum at this site, you will find your account suspended or closed.
 
Havard said:
Huh??? Shooting with high-accuracy instruments such as rifles with scopes is much more painless, humane way to kill a deer than chasing it with spears or using crude slings. Deer hunters aim for the heart, and modern instruments reduce the margin of error.
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I’m just making the point that we don’t need guns because cavemen existed without them.

There are many things in life we think we need that we don’t - another point.

Also, if one was to throw, with some practice, a spear at a small animal, it would kill it. This being an animal big enough to provide food for a few days. So maybe the point here is that if we think we need guns to kill animals then maybe the animals we hunt are not meant to be hunted.

Another point - the only reason people are good at shooting is because they practice. In the early World Wars, there were sharp shooters, with rickety guns compared to now, who were good because they always practiced. So the same could be said for spear-throwers! If people practiced all the time then they would know where to aim. I’m sure those indigenous people in areas of the world who still live primitively are pretty good at aiming.

But the point is, that these people love their environments. They respect creation. They kill because they have to, to survive. Not because they want to get a quick-fix rush to the head.
 
Robert_Bay said:
MODERATOR WARNING

Some people are using this topic to take pot shots (no pun intended) at the Holy Father. That is uncharitable and not allowed at the site. Either discuss the topic of the original post charitably or don’t post. If you insist on making derogatory statements against the Holy Father on any forum at this site, you will find your account suspended or closed.
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I actually work in the weapons/defense industry. So I hope one could appreciate why I would find the Holy Father’s comments…disconcerting.
 
friardchips said:
…remember, deers and cockroaches simply do what deers and cockroaches do; each human has a choice.
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Correct, and one of those choices is to eat venison. And the Church has no moral prohibitions against doing so.
 
SonOfMan said:
Cavemen also used those spears and clubs that were intended for hunting to impale and bludgeon other cavemen in fights. If we were in cavemen times, the Pope would be condemning spears and clubs.
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This is not true. Why? Because in those days there were not illegal drug and human trafficking issues mixed in with their spear sharing. There were not gun industries that sell arms to rebel factions for reasons onyl to do with profit and power. There was not exploitation of human rights mixed in with the throwing of spears. :rolleyes:
 
ARSpade said:
I actually work in the weapons/defense industry. So I hope one could appreciate why I would find the Holy Father’s comments…disconcerting.
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This will come as a surprise to workers at Boeing. Also soldiers. If the manufacturers can’t call themselves Christians, how much less can the users of those weapons do so?
 
Brendan said:
Correct, and one of those choices is to eat venison. And the Church has no moral prohibitions against doing so.
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We are called to love our environment.

If you are starving then I can see why someone might eat a deer. But as one poster just admitted, there is a blood-lust attached to the hunt.

St. Francis showed us how to treat our brother and sister animals in Creation - our freedom comes with responsibility. And this responsibility is to act with love.

It is the difference between the gun being a tool for survival or a toy for bored child-men to play with (the cheap thrill) - this is not acting responsibly.
 
friardchips said:
I’m just making the point that we don’t need guns because cavemen existed without them.

There are many things in life we think we need that we don’t - another point.

Also, if one was to throw, with some practice, a spear at a small animal, it would kill it. This being an animal big enough to provide food for a few days. So maybe the point here is that if we think we need guns to kill animals then maybe the animals we hunt are not meant to be hunted.

Another point - the only reason people are good at shooting is because they practice. In the early World Wars, there were sharp shooters, with rickety guns compared to now, who were good because they always practiced. So the same could be said for spear-throwers! If people practiced all the time then they would know where to aim. I’m sure those indigenous people in areas of the world who still live primitively are pretty good at aiming.

But the point is, that these people love their environments. They respect creation. They kill because they have to, to survive. Not because they want to get a quick-fix rush to the head.
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No one I know hunts deer for a “quick fix rush to the head”. Please rethink such uncharitable generalizations. One deer can easily yield over 50 lbs of meat, and a butchers typically charge less than $100 to process all that meat. Some charge less than $1 a pound. That’s enough meat for even a family to last a long time.
 
xNoOnex said:
Arm manufacturers not only build weapons with the intent to kill, but profit from their sale. While there’s nothing wrong with protecting one’s nation or family, do you really think it should be a multi-billion dollar business?

ISIS rose to power specifically because the “Just War” doctrine wasn’t followed. Remember, one of the required elements is that the war cannot result in a greater evil, but that’s just what happened. The removal of Saddam Hussein under the Bush administration and later our support (albeit indirectly) of the Syrian rebels. Many modern wars, at least concerning Western involvement in them, directly lead to the rise of groups like ISIS.
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This Pope has me very concerned. I have to be careful what I say as the forum police will get after me, so I guess I have to just say I am very concerned.

Yes, the arms industry has to be a $1B+ industry because the bad guys who want to kill Christians, take away our freedom, envy our hard work and success are spending much more when you consider that the amount evil governments, terrorists and organized crime invest, it barely keeps us ahead of the game. So yes, we have to spend that and more.

What concerns me is how does a church and its leadership become so removed from the issues of their faithful? How do they become so out of touch with reality, stresses of families, immorality, and so much more? I have some answers to why, but not all. But unfortunately, we as a flock have so little to do with the inner workings of the church as all that is really required is to give them money and time.
 
ARSpade said:
I actually work in the weapons/defense industry. So I hope one could appreciate why I would find the Holy Father’s comments…disconcerting.
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Yes, because you are making money from arms production.
 
Havard said:
No one I know hunts deer for a “quick fix rush to the head”. Please rethink such uncharitable generalizations.
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I’ll take it back when death squads stop being unkind to deer.
One deer can easily yield over 50 lbs of meat, and a butchers typically charge less than $100 to process all that meat. That’s enough meat for even a family to last a long time.
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Venison is an expensive meat or so I believe.
 
bobcrawford said:
This Pope has me very concerned. I have to be careful what I say as the forum police will get after me, so I guess I have to just say I am very concerned.

Yes, the arms industry has to be a $1B+ industry because the bad guys who want to kill Christians, take away our freedom, envy our hard work and success are spending much more when you consider that the amount evil governments, terrorists and organized crime invest, it barely keeps us ahead of the game. So yes, we have to spend that and more.

What concerns me is how does a church and its leadership become so removed from the issues of their faithful? How do they become so out of touch with reality, stresses of families, immorality, and so much more? I have some answers to why, but not all. But unfortunately, we as a flock have so little to do with the inner workings of the church as all that is really required is to give them money and time.
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The Church doesn’t lower its understanding of the truth to the level of base animal instincts for anyone.
 
friardchips said:
We are called to love our environment.

If you are starving then I can see why someone might eat a deer. But as one poster just admitted, there is a blood-lust attached to the hunt.

St. Francis showed us how to treat our brother and sister animals in Creation - our freedom comes with responsibility. And this responsibility is to act with love.

It is the difference between the gun being a tool for survival or a toy for bored child-men to play with (the cheap thrill) - this is not acting responsibly.
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Last I heard Catholics aren’t required to be vegan or vegetarian.
 
They kill because they have to, to survive. Not because they want to get a quick-fix rush to the head.
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At the end of the day, a deer is killed for food, or a bovine is killed for food and both are eaten for sustenance. Im not going to be concerned about the hunter/slaughterhouse employees thrills or lack there of in dispatching the animal.

Make mine rare.
 
I dont think so. I think the Pope understands the situations as they really are without all the fluff.

Yes (in bold). Or he wouldn’t have said what he said.
 
friardchips said:
I’ll take it back when death squads stop being unkind to deer.

Venison is an expensive meat or so I believe.
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Death squads? It doesn’t appear that you even considered my comment. Are you interested in a good faith discourse about this? I’m happy to talk, but I don’t want to be mocked.
 
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