Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

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friardchips said:
We are called to love our environment.

If you are starving then I can see why someone might eat a deer. But as one poster just admitted, there is a blood-lust attached to the hunt.

St. Francis showed us how to treat our brother and sister animals in Creation - our freedom comes with responsibility. And this responsibility is to act with love.

It is the difference between the gun being a tool for survival or a toy for bored child-men to play with (the cheap thrill) - this is not acting responsibly.
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So factory farmed beef/chicken is okay but free range not modified deer is bad?
 
Havard said:
Death squads? It doesn’t appear that you even considered my comment. Are you interested in a good faith discourse about this? I’m happy to talk, but I don’t want to be mocked.
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Well, problem is, deer can’t speak up for themselves.
 
If this was my first contact with humanity I could only conclude, having read most of this thread, that you are a really bloodthirsty lot
 
I’ll bet he’s never seen a factory farm of any kind either, meat or veggie.
 
ARSpade said:
So factory farmed beef/chicken is okay but free range not modified deer is bad?
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Any animal kept in bad conditions for whatever reason is a bad thing.

Okay, so would you kill a cat or dog? What? You don’t want to?

But you will kill a deer?! So in that case, if you have an animal, go and kill it and eat it. You will be prosecuted if you do, btw.
 
You just blew my mind. Don’t want to get off topic, but I’m honestly curious how anyone ever got that idea.
 
What happens?

What are the figures in terms of occurrence - how rare?

Are there not people employed to do this when ‘culling’ is needed?
 
ARSpade said:
So are you saying I shouldn’t call myself a Christian? That I am, in fact, not one?
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I didn’t say it. But I can see why it was.

As Christians, we have to be conscientious consumers and workers.
 
friardchips said:
Any animal kept in bad conditions for whatever reason is a bad thing.

Okay, so would you kill a cat or dog? What? You don’t want to?

But you will kill a deer?! So in that case, if you have an animal, go and kill it and eat it. You will be prosecuted if you do, btw.
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Predators don’t taste particularly good.

And, in fact, I do know people who’ve shot dogs. Mostly for attacking their livestock.

I follow, as the Catechism would require, all game related laws which are set up to be ecologically balanced. Well, I would if I actually got around to hunting.
 
friardchips said:
I didn’t say it. But I can see why it was.
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Oh? Shall nobody provide weapons for national defense as laid out in the CCC? Self defense, nationally and personally, is laid out there. Kinda helps to have the tools to do that.

And, if you agree with it, why not say it?
 
Johann_du_Toit said:
I think his Holiness’s speech was not as simple as condemning arms manufacturing. My interpretation is he was condemning those who make profit from human misery and war, and perpetuate unjust wars (like World War I, which the Vatican deemed unjust under Pope Benedict XV) for profit, but refuse to intervene militarily in circumstances which would be just, like the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust, because it would not be profitable for them do do so.

Please correct me if my interpretation is mistaken.
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👍👍
That is what I got from it too.
 
2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, **governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”**105

2309 **The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require **rigorous consideration. the gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. the power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 **Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.
Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.**106
 
ARSpade said:
Predators don’t taste particularly good.

And, in fact, I do know people who’ve shot dogs. Mostly for attacking their livestock.
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So they don’t kill the dogs for blood-lust alone then?
I follow, as the Catechism would require, all game related laws which are set up to be ecologically balanced. Well, I would if I actually got around to hunting.
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So you produce guns but don’t use them?
 
friardchips said:
So they don’t kill the dogs for blood-lust alone then?

So you produce guns but don’t use them?
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It’s not against the teachings of the Catholic church to use a gun or to hunt. Nor is it against the teachings of the church to defend your family, community or nation with deadly force. Catholics are not required to passivists.
 
Cider said:
2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, **governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”**105

2309 **The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require **rigorous consideration. the gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. the power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 **Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.
Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.**106
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Yes. Pope Francis was not decrying self-defence, he was decrying the profiteering and no doubt corrupt business of arms dealing which has produced death upon death all over the world. And the production of more instruments of death which serve only death.

So far ISIS have been allowed to run amock, so why don’t you remind me how all these billions of dollars spent on arms dealerships, have actually been put to honourable use?
 
friardchips said:
Yes. Pope Francis was not decrying self-defence, he was decrying the profiteering and no doubt corrupt business of arms dealing which has produced death upon death all over the world. And the production of more instruments of death which serve only death.

So far ISIS have been allowed to run amock, so why don’t you remind me how all these billions of dollars spent on arms dealerships, have actually been put to honourable use?
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I wasn’t addressing Pope Francis’s comments, I was addressing yours which seem to corrupt his comments into calling for us to be passivists. Otherwise you wouldn’t be on the PETA screed raging about hunting deer.
 
Cider said:
It’s not against the teachings of the Catholic church to use a gun or to hunt. Nor is it against the teachings of the church to defend your family, community or nation with deadly force. Catholics are not required to passivists.
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There is a reason why some people hunt that is not for the same reasons that other people hunt.

I know. It is called a just war. We are not called to pacificism. Agreed.
 
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