Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

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Cider said:
I wasn’t addressing Pope Francis’s comments, I was addressing yours which seem to corrupt his comments into calling for us to be passivists. Otherwise you wouldn’t be on the PETA screed raging about hunting deer.
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I apologise if I gave that impression. We are not called to pacificism.

Please stop using my defence of innocent animals to push your pro-gun agenda.
 
friardchips said:
I apologise if I gave that impression. We are not called to pacificism.

Please stop using my defence of innocent animals to push your pro-gun agenda.
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innocent animals? animals are neither innocent or guilty.
 
friardchips said:
The Church doesn’t lower its understanding of the truth to the level of base animal instincts for anyone.
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That is a silly statement. It is a God given right to be able to protect yourself, family and others from harm. The truth is that defense is a basic human right.
 
SonOfMan said:
Hes preaching against weapons, but then asks why no one used weapons.
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I don’t think you got the correct sense of what the Holy Father was saying in its full context. He was not preaching against weapons. He was preaching against trusting only in men, as he said:** “If you trust only in men, you have lost!.”** Immediately after saying that, he went on to illustrate an example of trusting only in men, in terms of men who manufacture weapons. It is not that these men are doing anything intrinsically evil. It is they cannot be the sole object of our trust.

The Holy Father’s point is further illustrated (not contradicted) by the other statement that SWolf had bolded in post #63: “Then, in the 1930s and 1940s, the tragedy of the Shoah. The great powers had photographed the railway lines that carried the trains to the concentration camps, such as Auschwitz, to kill Jews, and also Christians, Roma, homosexuals, to kill them there. But tell me, why did they not bomb them? Interests!”. This is making the same point, that you cannot even trust those with the weapons to do the right thing with them.

Far from being contradictory, the two sections that SWolf had bolded were both supporting the Holy Father’s main point. So you see the title of this thread and the news article it came from are a gross misrepresentation of the Pope’s message.
 
friardchips said:
I apologise if I gave that impression. We are not called to pacificism.

Please stop using my defence of innocent animals to push your pro-gun agenda.
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Firstly, stop with your ad hominem’s. Secondly, stop implying that it’s unchristian to hunt or own a gun. That isn’t what the Pope said. I don’t even know why you’re bringing up hunting in this thread in the first place, other than to further your personal agenda which is not supported by Church teaching.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
I don’t think you got the correct sense of what the Holy Father was saying in its full context. He was not preaching against weapons. He was preaching against trusting only in men, as he said: “If you trust only in men, you have lost!.”**** Immediately after saying that, he went on to illustrate an example of trusting only in men, in terms of men who manufacture weapons. It is not that these men are doing anything intrinsically evil. It is they cannot be the sole object of our trust.

This is further illustrated (not contradicted) by the other statement that SWolf had bolded in post #63: “Then, in the 1930s and 1940s, the tragedy of the Shoah. The great powers had photographed the railway lines that carried the trains to the concentration camps, such as Auschwitz, to kill Jews, and also Christians, Roma, homosexuals, to kill them there. But tell me, why did they not bomb them? Interests!”. This is making the same point, that you cannot even trust those with the weapons to do the right thing with them.

Far from being contradictory, the two sections that SWolf had bolded were both supporting the Holy Father’s main point. So you see the title of this thread and the news article it came from are a gross misrepresentation of the Pope’s message.
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Well it’s not like God stopped Hilter all by himself is it. It took men to do it. Otherwise world war I and II never would have happened.
 
friardchips said:
Exactly. Thank you for summing up the whole lack of thought which is the problem.
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A Church so divided cannot stand.

The Church takes no outward action against Pelosi, Biden and other abortion promoting Democrats, yet talks publicly about how wrong it is to be in the defense business and how bad climate change is on people?

And some so-called Catholics talk about hunting for food as a death squad?

Sometimes I think this is all a distraction from the continuing child abuse scandals or the Holy Spirit just caught the last train for the coast as the song goes.

This is all insanity!!!
 
bobcrawford said:
A Church so divided cannot stand.

The Church takes no outward action against Pelosi, Biden and other abortion promoting Democrats, yet talks publicly about how wrong it is to be in the defense business and how bad climate change is on people?

And some so-called Catholics talk about hunting for food as a death squad?

Sometimes I think this is all a distraction from the continuing child abuse scandals or the Holy Spirit just caught the last train for the coast as the song goes.

This is all insanity!!!
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I completely agree
 
Cider said:
Well it’s not like God stopped Hilter all by himself is it. It took men to do it. Otherwise world war I and II never would have happened.
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You missed my point. (And apparently the Holy Father’s point.) He was not preaching against weapons,** or the men who use them**. He was preaching about trusting only in those weapons and those men.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
This is further illustrated (not contradicted) by the other statement that SWolf had bolded in post #63: “Then, in the 1930s and 1940s, the tragedy of the Shoah. The great powers had photographed the railway lines that carried the trains to the concentration camps, such as Auschwitz, to kill Jews, and also Christians, Roma, homosexuals, to kill them there. But tell me, why did they not bomb them? Interests!”. This is making the same point, that you cannot even trust those with the weapons to do the right thing with them.
.
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Except that’s not a good point at all. There’s a host of reasons why we didn’t bomb the raillines leading to Auschwitz, all of them good. Doing the right thing was ending the entire war as fast as possible.

Ignoring possible range issues, prior to early 1944 it would’ve been suicide to send heavy bombers unescorted to that area. We were losing bombers prior to then at an unsustainable rate… Post-early 1944 the priority was to destroy the Luftwaffe (gaining air superiority) and prep for the invasion that would actually end the war. Post invasion you’re supporting that to try to end the war.

So prior to 1944 we could’ve say, thrown away what remained of our nearly shattered bomber force on a raid that would, at best, temporarily annoy the German rail industry while not impacting their movement of actual military hardware (or death camp victims), and post-1944 we could’ve drawn precious resources away from ending the war as a whole.

For reference, from 1943: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Raid_on_Schweinfurt

Note that Schweinfurt isn’t anywhere near as far a target as anything near Auschwitz.
Losses in aircrew were equally heavy, with 650 men lost of 2,900, 22% of the bomber crews. The American Official History of the Army Air Forces in the Second World War acknowledged losses had been so heavy that the USAAF would not return to the target for four months; “The fact was that the Eighth Air Force had for the time being lost air superiority over Germany”.
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LeafByNiggle said:
You missed my point. (And apparently the Holy Father’s point.) He was not preaching against weapons,** or the men who use them**. He was preaching about trusting only in those weapons and those men.
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Weapons don’t work on their own. They require men ( or women) to use them. But I wouldn’t be surprised at all if I misunderstood him. I find his statements baffling most of the time.
 
Cider said:
Weapons don’t work on their own. They require men ( or women) to use them. But I wouldn’t be surprised at all if I misunderstood him. I find his statements baffling most of the time.
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Pray for help in understanding to counter misunderstanding.
 
I’m more intrigued by the Pope saying “Freemasonry prevailed” in late 19th century Italy.

Dan
 
Ridgerunner said:
This will come as a surprise to workers at Boeing. Also soldiers. If the manufacturers can’t call themselves Christians, how much less can the users of those weapons do so?
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So are Catholics who work at any of the defense industries obligated to quit their jobs?:confused:

Is this an excommunication of sorts?
 
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