Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

[friardchips]

That is a silly statement. It is a God given right to be able to protect yourself, family and others from harm. The truth is that defense is a basic human right.

Funny. But in other countries other than the U.S, the U.K for example, we do okay without guns. The problem is only where there are guns in large inner cities where crime is more exaggerated. Illegal markets etc…We don’t have children being shot in schools.

 

[Sarcelle]

Animals are innocent by nature.

No they are not.

Nature is well by its nature “red in tooth and claw”.

My cat has given me several dead birds and mice as presents. I have gone hiking in the jungles of Borneo and have seen huge eagles snatch monkeys off of trees.

You seem to have a Disneyesque view of nature.

 

[friardchips]

Firstly, stop with your ad hominem’s. Secondly, stop implying that it’s unchristian to hunt or own a gun. That isn’t what the Pope said. I don’t even know why you’re bringing up hunting in this thread in the first place, other than to further your personal agenda which is not supported by Church teaching.

I haven’t said that. I started off by pointing out that actually the world doesn’t need guns in the same sense that we need air.

Also, I have said that to hunt for food is fine but the problem with using guns is that we can exploit their use as they are often used for crimes against humanity and for blood-sports.

Actually, I have read other posts by you in other threads running, and you seem always to be on the verge of attacking the Pope. And misreading his comments. So please take a spoon of your own medicine first before criticising me for putting forward a considered opinion. I have no agenda.

 

[dans0622]

So are Catholics who work at any of the defense industries obligated to quit their jobs?

Is this an excommunication of sorts?

Hello,

No, they aren’t and no, it isn’t.

Dan

 

[ARSpade]

Funny. But in other countries other than the U.S, the U.K for example, we do okay without guns. The problem is only where there are guns in large inner cities where crime is more exaggerated. Illegal markets etc.…We don’t have children being shot in schools.

Same thing here, actually.

According to a CDC report if you removed, IIRC, the worst zip codes in just DC, Chicago, and Baltimore than the entire US gun crime rate would be the same as most places in Europe.

Of course, one thing that is different is that we don’t tell rape victims they’re bad people if they tried to hurt their attacker, and the like.

 

[friardchips]

Same thing here, actually.

According to a CDC report if you removed, IIRC, the worst zip codes in just DC, Chicago, and Baltimore than the entire US gun crime rate would be the same as most places in Europe.

Of course, one thing that is different is that we don’t tell rape victims they’re bad people if they tried to hurt their attacker, and the like.

It is the same for break-ins. If people defend their homes and cause any injury to the intruder, they are done for it. Go figure (thought I’d sneak in an americanism)!

Yes, there are a lot of contradictions and things are messed up, but we can feel reassured in that these confusions go way, way back in history, and are not just a consequence of contemporary culture. Maybe the calm after the storm is on its way.

 

[friardchips]

No they are not.

Nature is well by its nature “red in tooth and claw”.

My cat has given me several dead birds and mice as presents. I have gone hiking in the jungles of Borneo and have seen huge eagles snatch monkeys off of trees.

You seem to have a Disneyesque view of nature.

Animals are innocent by nature. Look it up in Catholic resources.

Yes, creatures have strong instincts, and can be ruthless, but they cannot choose in the same way we can and so are innocent by nature.

 

[friardchips]

According to a CDC report if you removed, IIRC, the worst zip codes in just DC, Chicago, and Baltimore than the entire US gun crime rate would be the same as most places in Europe.

That’s quite an astounding statistic come to think of it. That three zip codes are responsible for so much destruction.

 

[friardchips]

You seem to have a Disneyesque view of nature.

And?

If one views all with love, then all can be loved.

 

[CaptFun]

That raises an interesting question.

None of the Holy Father’s speeches he has given thus far have been in english.

How many times have the (let wing) english speaking media ( deliberately distorted the Holy Father’s words to give an ideological slant to his words that he never intended?

Especially yahoo, which has a history of deliberately distorting and misrepresenting the Church and it’s teachings in it’s headlines (long before Pope Francis assumed office).

Take the episode where the Holy Father was reported to call Mahmoud Abbas a “prince of peace”. What he actually said to Abbas was “go forth and be a prince of peace”. Big distortion of his words.

I mean, the headline itself in this post is misleading as it’s exact words are not attributed to the Pope.

You made me think of a scene from the brilliant movie “King of Kings” (albeit an extra-biblical, plot advancing scene, full of plausible speculation about how it MIGHT have been).

"King of Kings" scene synopsis - in which it’s JESUS who some are distorting or making over unto their own purposes - somewhat like what Johann du Toit refers to today re: Pope Francis

Judas in the film is speaking to Barrabas (who is, germane to this thread, making weapons in prep for a revolution). Judas, in this scene is not yet trying to “force Jesus’ hand” into confronting the Romans, but appears as a sincere follower.

Barrabas, hearing that Jesus is to come to Jerusalem to speak, thinks it’s a wonderful opportunity to let him BRING the crowds - then for his group of zealots to “steal them,”
arm them, and take the city in an insurrection.

Judas counsels patience. Let Jesus alone. He has power that cannot be imagined. The zealots should rather let their presence be known, but with knives sheathed - backing Jesus’ “play” - in Judas’ mind a bloodless taking of Herod’s throne (and maybe a Roman troop departure, as they’d no longer be needed to prop up unpopular King Herod).

“If he can do all THAT without bloodshed,” Barrabas remarks, taking a moments break from his sword-forging, “I’ll forge the crown for him myself!” (he bends the cooling iron into what could be the beginnings of such a crown).

Judas leaves pleased and happy. The other zealots are aghast at Barrabas’ seeming captitulation. But Barrabas calms them, calling Judas a dreamer - and returns to his “weapon manufacturing”.

Per Johann du Toit’s remarks … I’m not sure about “deliberately” … but I agree the Pope’s words in previous English language translations have brought distortions (which begat controversies that otherwise might not have infected and recast the Pope’s “Joy of Evangelization” encyclical as one which “principally condemned capitalism” ). And, OK, possibly, that was deliberately so, to boot.

 

[ARSpade]

That’s quite an astounding statistic come to think of it. That three zip codes are responsible for so much destruction.

It actually is.

People think of Chicago as a warzone but in reality it’s literally one small area that’s responsible for most of the crime and violence.

ETA: I may be off on the amount of area, but it is very very small and can be found in the CDC report.

 

[friardchips]

It actually is.

People think of Chicago as a warzone but in reality it’s literally one small area that’s responsible for most of the crime and violence.

ETA: I may be off on the amount of area, but it is very very small and can be found in the CDC report.

Is it linked with poverty and lack of funding? This is often the cause. Maybe because certain areas become known as hot spots for trouble it attracts outsiders because they know their actions will be hidden amongst the chaos. In the same way that Mexico used to be portrayed. Btw…I’m making general guesses here as I’m based in the U.K not U.S (in case my assertions seem a little trite).

 

[friardchips]

You seem to have a Disneyesque view of nature.

This coming from the poster who has a teddy bear for their image. :thumbsup:

 

[CaptFun]

You missed my point. (And apparently the Holy Father’s point.) He was not preaching against weapons,** or the men who use them**. He was preaching about trusting only in those weapons and those men.

Forgive my emphasis in RED there. You could be right IMO.

THAT is rather like what the Pope really said about “unfettered capitalism” in his epistle Gaudium Evangelii. As I read it he was addressing some who he thought were putting all their solutions concerning a troubled economy (and help for the poor) into one “free market capitalism will cover it all” basket. With some unfortunate, politically charged (per the U.S.), references to “trickle down” economics - a seeming jab at the Reagan Administrations policies of the 1980s, < which, I’ll add was also strange given the economic outcomes THEN vs. now (even with a multi-billion dollar cold war to fight each year, THEN!) Francis’ message got a bit distorted and generated controversy. Controversies are good for selling papers and holding TV audiences - but they should not be indulged in for their own sake or to accomplish some dubious side effect in their creation. IMO.

Jesus warned us against serving Mammon … but later told the apostles to keep a change purse. So, Francis warning us against possible excesses of capitalism generally, doesn’t really sound out of character.

Jesus had warnings for the rich and hopeful promises for the poor. Then spoke of mansions to come. In time to come Francis may continue those good counsels, and
learn to maybe tone down or more positively edit some of the phrases that sound like “class warfare” rhetoric used to death by some of the groups that need warnings as much as any capitalist does. IMO.

 

[Sarcelle]

This coming from the poster who has a teddy bear for their image. :thumbsup:

Guess I walked into that one.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Nope. That’s dinner. :tsktsk:

Winner.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Except that’s not a good point at all. There’s a host of reasons why we didn’t bomb the raillines leading to Auschwitz, all of them good. Doing the right thing was ending the entire war as fast as possible…

You can criticise the Pope for his choice of example to prove his point that you cannot trust only in men, but his point is still a good one even if he didn’t pick the best example of it.

 

[friardchips]

Guess I walked into that one.

 

[friardchips]

Winner.

Along time ago, before I grew a conscience, I tasted venison, and it was a tough meat, and expensive (!!!).

You know that a stag is used in the Song of Songs as a symbol of sacredness?

(YES - HOLY SCRIPTURE).

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s not so pricey for those who hunt for it themselves. But, without meaning any offense, your statement that it’s delicious if cooked properly reminds me of all the explanations hunters have as to why it’s really not awful. “Oh”, they say “If you mix it with beef, THEN it’s good”, or “Well, it’s better as sausage”, or “Venison jerky is the best” or “mix it with beef tallow and it won’t be so dry”, or “It’s great if you put it in chili”.

The excuses for venison are innumerable. But no matter what, it still tastes bad.

But I will allow that those who like it are welcome to it. I have sometimes said that if there were well-fed steers running loose out in the woods, I would be there with a rifle myself.