Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

[LeafByNiggle]

Again:

“If you trust only in men, you have lost! Think of the people, leaders, entrepreneurs, who say they are Christians and then produce weapons! They say one thing and do another. Hypocrisy!”

The take away:

1. Dont trust men who makes weapons as they are hypocrites (among others)
2. Why are they hyprocrites?
   Say one thing: I am a Christian
   Do another: Make weapons.
3. So using s(name removed by moderator)le deductive reasoning, making weapons must be un-Christian according to him hence the hypocrisy.

If you look at the larger context of this quote you will see that this interpretation is not the pope’s point, and not something he really believes:

“Very often we breathe an air of distrust in life. There are situations that make us think, ‘But is it worth living like this?’. I think of the wars in this world. At times I have said that we are living a third world war, but in pieces. There is war in Europe, there is war in Africa, there is war in the Middle East, there is war in other countries … But can I trust in a life like this? Can I trust world leaders? When I go to vote for a candidate, can I trust that he or she will not take my country to war? If you trust only in men, you have lost! Think of the people, leaders, entrepreneurs, who say they are Christians and then produce weapons! They say one thing and do another. Hypocrisy … But we see what happened during the last century: in 1914, or rather in 1915 precisely. There was the great tragedy in Armenia. Many people died. I do not know how many, but certainly more than a million. Where were the great powers of the time? They looked away. Why? Because they were interested in war: their war! And those who died, they were second class people, human beings. Then, in the 1930s and 1940s, the tragedy of the Shoah. The great powers had photographed the railway lines that carried the trains to the concentration camps, such as Auschwitz, to kill Jews, and also Christians, Roma, homosexuals, to kill them there. But tell me, why did they not bomb them? Interests! And soon after, almost at the same time, there were the lagers in Russia: Stalin … how many Christians suffered and were killed. The great powers divided Europe like a cake. Many years had to pass before reaching a certain ‘freedom’. There is the hypocrisy of speaking about peace and producing arms, and even selling weapons to this one, who is at war with that one, and to that one who is at war with this!”

He is clearly concerned about trusting in men to do the right thing - with weapons and otherwise. Selling weapons to this side or that based on what may serve the seller’s own interests, rather than the interests of the people most affected by war, this is a very different thing from making weapons and using them for just purposes. You also have to remember that he had departed from his prepared remarks and was speaking extemporaneously. He may have phrased his remarks more clearly if he had composed them with the benefit of contemplation. The apparent conflict between criticizing weapons makers and in the same breath criticizing the non-use of those weapons in specific instances is more evidence that the literal interpretation of the first part of his remarks is inaccurate. Try reading St. John of the Cross literally sometime and tell me how must sense that makes.

I still think that much of the criticism of the Holy Father lately has come from a desire to discredit his encyclical at all costs - even if it means bringing down the pope by causing a scandal in the Church.

 

[Sarcelle]

W H A T ?

You blame our Creator for lack of listening?

First, He does listen but it is not His fault if governments don’t care enough. He has people working for Him out there, getting kidnapped and held hostage - people who work for the Church (check the ACN website occasionally, you will see). But we live in lands in which child murder (abortion) is legal. And you expect our leaders to have their fingers out their ears listening attentively to the plight of the innocent in places where they don’t reap any benefits?!

Second, why should He listen to a Church whose laity live unholy distracted lives and barely pay Him any attention, with our modernistic contemporary class-system progressive flatulence that people mistake for faith. Many Christians mock the lives of Catholic saints as I have even heard scholars doing, thinking they know better - which they don’t. We have sacrificed real spirituality for a distracted excuse for one - the spirit of the world. And you suddenly expect our Creator to listen when we treat Him like this… ha!

The reason is because there are no people who care enough about putting our Creator first and because of this there are very few holy sacrificies made in the west.

You said there are no people who are putting our Creator first.

You sure about that? Do you know everyone?

 

[friardchips]

You said there are no people who are putting our Creator first.

You sure about that? Do you know everyone?

There probably are. But I meant generally. There is so much spirit of the world present in conflict with Christianity. And I see it everywhere.

We need saints. And to have saints we need people willing to be saints in the first place.

There is also a current aversion to the Rosary that I have experienced far and wide. This makes me more certain about who is behind the worldly thinking seeping into the Church. Have you not noticed how many people are always willing to verbally accuse the Pope and wonderful Catholic truths at the slightest whim?

 

[graciew]

Again:

“If you trust only in men, you have lost! Think of the people, leaders, entrepreneurs, who say they are Christians and then produce weapons! They say one thing and do another. Hypocrisy!”

The take away:

1. Dont trust men who makes weapons as they are hypocrites (among others)
2. Why are they hyprocrites?
   Say one thing: I am a Christian
   Do another: Make weapons.
3. So using s(name removed by moderator)le deductive reasoning, making weapons must be un-Christian according to him hence the hypocrisy.

Let us see if this previous one explains it better.

There usually is a connection,a thread with previous speeches ,homilies and it usually continues. At least that is what I ’ ve seen.
If you go to news.va and try and read where he is coming from,what he has been saying,preeching,it is easier to understand him. Just like with any other person ,if you ask.

news.va/en/news/during-his-return-flight-the-pontiff-denounced-the

Anna Chiara Valle] You spoke of those who deliberately stir up an atmosphere of war, and then you said to the young people that there are those world leaders who speak openly of peace while selling weapons under the table. Would you like to explain this concept a little more…

Sure: there’s always hypocrisy! Thus I said that it is not enough just to talk about peace, one must also work for peace! And the one who only talks about peace but doesn’t work for it is contradicts himself; and the one who speaks of peace while promoting war, for example, through the selling of weapon, is a hypocrite. It’s that simple…

Hope it helps.

 

[Tbrightson]

Let us see if this previous one explains it better.

There usually is a connection,a thread with previous speeches ,homilies and it usually continues. At least that is what I ’ ve seen.
If you go to news.va and try and read where he is coming from,what he has been saying,preeching,it is easier to understand him. Just like with any other person ,if you ask.

news.va/en/news/during-his-return-flight-the-pontiff-denounced-the

Anna Chiara Valle] You spoke of those who deliberately stir up an atmosphere of war, and then you said to the young people that there are those world leaders who speak openly of peace while selling weapons under the table. Would you like to explain this concept a little more…

Sure: there’s always hypocrisy! Thus I said that it is not enough just to talk about peace, one must also work for peace! And the one who only talks about peace but doesn’t work for it is contradicts himself; and the one who speaks of peace while promoting war, for example, through the selling of weapon, is a hypocrite. It’s that simple…

Hope it helps.

So how does this apply to weapons manufacturers? He is talking about those who talk about peace but promote war by selling weapons. - Politicians? I dont necessarily find any hypocrisy in that BTW, depends on the circumstances. But Is he talking about weapons manufacturers? Not that I can see. But I do know his opinion about weapons manufacturers as it is clearly stated in the sentence I referenced. Since he seems to think manufacturing weapons and Christianity is incompatible, I sure hope he doesnt have the Swiss Guard buying anymore weapons as they would be copertating with evil and that would be bring scandal.

 

[Tbrightson]

“this is a very different thing from making weapons and using them for just purposes.”

Of course. Then perhaps saying Christian weapons manufacturers are hypocrites was not a smart thing to say?

 

[mikekle]

Sometimes prayer isnt the answer, but rather getting off ones butt and taking action.

Reminds of this parable:

A man was trapped in his house during a flood. He began praying to God to rescue him. He had a vision in his head of God’s hand reaching down from heaven and lifting him to safety. The water started to rise in his house. His neighbour urged him to leave and offered him a ride to safety. The man yelled back, “I am waiting for God to save me.” The neighbour drove off in his pick-up truck.

The man continued to pray and hold on to his vision. As the water began rising in his house, he had to climb up to the roof. A boat came by with some people heading for safe ground. They yelled at the man to grab a rope they were ready to throw and take him to safety. He told them that he was waiting for God to save him. They shook their heads and moved on.

The man continued to pray, believing with all his heart that he would be saved by God. The flood waters continued to rise. A helicopter flew by and a voice came over a loudspeaker offering to lower a ladder and take him off the roof. The man waved the helicopter away, shouting back that he was waiting for God to save him. The helicopter left. The flooding water came over the roof and caught him up and swept him away. He drowned.

When he reached heaven and asked, “God, why did you not save me? I believed in you with all my heart. Why did you let me drown?” God replied, “I sent you a pick-up truck, a boat and a helicopter and you refused all of them. What else could I possibly do for you?”

I see what you are saying, and understand how God ‘uses’ other people towards answering certain prayers, BUT, has there ever been any case where it was absolutely clear it was divine intervention? Sure, God COULD have sent that pickup truck or boat, but maybe he did not, maybe he had nothing to do with it…see what Im saying, theres always that doubt, theres never been a case (that I know of), where someone could honestly say, YES, it was definitely an act of God, it simply could not have been anything else, example…that same man with the water rising all around his house, prays to God, calls out for help, then, God send angels to literally lift the man up and take him to higher ground, something 100% supernatural, sort of like when God parted the Red sea for Moses and all those people…that was absolutely, 100% an act of God, no one that saw such a sight could say otherwise.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

“this is a very different thing from making weapons and using them for just purposes.”

Of course. Then perhaps saying Christian weapons manufacturers are hypocrites was not a smart thing to say?

This is your “worst possible interpretation” on “They say one thing and do another. Hypocrisy.” You just assume the first “one thing” is claiming to be Christian, and that “do another” is “produce weapons”. It could just as well have been “saying the are going to use weapons for just purposes” and then “using those weapons unjustly”. My interpretation is at least consistent with the rest of the paragraph. Yours is not. When there is a lack of clarity, use all the information available to you. The pope could certainly have been clearer, and he probably would have been had he been writing at his leisure. Are you sure you would have done better speaking to a crowd without a script?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

This is your “worst possible interpretation” on “They say one thing and do another. Hypocrisy.” You just assume the first “one thing” is claiming to be Christian, and that “do another” is “produce weapons”. It could just as well have been “saying the are going to use weapons for just purposes” and then “using those weapons unjustly”. My interpretation is at least consistent with the rest of the paragraph. Yours is not. When there is a lack of clarity, use all the information available to you. The pope’s impromptu remarks could certainly have been clearer, and they probably would have been if he had been writing as his leisure. Are you that much beter at speaking extemporaneously to a group of youths who are asking questions about matters of deep concern?

 

[zz912]

“this is a very different thing from making weapons and using them for just purposes.”

Of course. Then perhaps saying Christian weapons manufacturers are hypocrites was not a smart thing to say?

Agreed. I think it was just an off-the-cuff remark that the Pope should probably apologize for. At least apologize for the lack of clarity if he meant something else.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Agreed. I think it was just an off-the-cuff remark that the Pope should probably apologize for. At least apologize for the lack of clarity if he meant something else.

You know how the left has their PC issues? You don’t dare say something that might be taken as offensive to women, blacks, native Americans, short people, handicapped people, tall people, etc., or you will have to apologize. Well, it seems the right has their PC issues too. You don’t dare say anything that might be taken as offensive to weapons manufacturers, big oil, etc., or you will have to apologize. This latest exchange just proves that point.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Wonderful, so stop suggesting we all take a particular certain path. I for one will go down shooting. I’m not a sheep.

BTW it easy to be pacifist when there are rough men at the wall willing to kill in order to allow you to keep that luxury.

When the shooting starts those rough men will leave and take care of their own.

 

[Tbrightson]

You know how the left has their PC issues? You don’t dare say something that might be taken as offensive to women, blacks, native Americans, short people, handicapped people, tall people, etc., or you will have to apologize. Well, it seems the right has their PC issues too. You don’t dare say anything that might be taken as offensive to weapons manufacturers, big oil, etc., or you will have to apologize. This latest exchange just proves that point.

Unlike the leftists who run riot with their PC pitchforks, I don’t think the Pope should have to apologize. I don’t think he misspoke, I think he meant what he said. His thinking would be consistent of a Jesuit. I just disagree with it.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I don’t think he misspoke, I think he meant what he said. His thinking would be consistent of a Jesuit…

But it is inconsistent with what he said immediately afterwards. That counts for more than assumptions about what a general Jesuit might say, which, by the way, does not include a blanket condemnation of all who manufacture weapons. Your argument just doesn’t make sense on so many levels.

 

[ReConverted]

Arm manufacturers not only build weapons with the intent to kill, but profit from their sale. While there’s nothing wrong with protecting one’s nation or family, do you really think it should be a multi-billion dollar business?

ISIS rose to power specifically because the “Just War” doctrine wasn’t followed. Remember, one of the required elements is that the war cannot result in a greater evil, but that’s just what happened. The removal of Saddam Hussein under the Bush administration and later our support (albeit indirectly) of the Syrian rebels. Many modern wars, at least concerning Western involvement in them, directly lead to the rise of groups like ISIS.

BINGO!

 

[ReConverted]

You know how the left has their PC issues? You don’t dare say something that might be taken as offensive to women, blacks, native Americans, short people, handicapped people, tall people, etc., or you will have to apologize. Well, it seems the right has their PC issues too. You don’t dare say anything that might be taken as offensive to weapons manufacturers, big oil, etc., or you will have to apologize. This latest exchange just proves that point.

I’m pretty sure that Jesus prefers to look out for women, blacks, native Americans, short people, handicapped people, tall people, etc as opposed to weapons manufacturers and big oil.

 

[graciew]

Unlike the leftists who run riot with their PC pitchforks, I don’t think the Pope should have to apologize. I don’t think he misspoke, I think he meant what he said. His thinking would be consistent of a Jesuit. I just disagree with it.

Would this one help.
It was a few months ago
catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-backs-intervention-in-iraq-to-stop-aggressor-71808/

 

[graciew]

Would this one help.?
It was a few months ago
catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-backs-intervention-in-iraq-to-stop-aggressor-71808/

 

[Tbrightson]

Would this one help.
It was a few months ago
catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-backs-intervention-in-iraq-to-stop-aggressor-71808/

Sure, I realize the Pope understands that military force can be appropriate. Good on him.
But he obviously has an issue with weapons manufacturing, which he finds to be un-Christian by his remarks. I simply took what he said at face value, and am not going to twist myself into a pretzel to try to come up with an alternative interpretation to bail him out of the obvious contradiction.

 

[Tbrightson]

I’m pretty sure that Jesus prefers to look out for women, blacks, native Americans, short people, handicapped people, tall people, etc as opposed to weapons manufacturers and big oil.

And here all along I though Jesus loves and looks out for everyone.