Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

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LongingSoul said:
I don’t know everyone is finding it difficult to glean the Popes meaning? The global arms trade is a very profit driven, capitalist industry and that’s really not the ideal when it comes to something like weapons of death. Let them be government controlled at least so that the forces of profit and power aren’t compromising the ethical, legitimate use of these deadly machines.
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Fine so instead say they need to be regulated instead of calling them un-Christian and death merchants.

BTW weapons sales ARE regualted by the repsective govts.
 
Tbrightson said:
Fine so instead say they need to be regulated instead of calling them un-Christian and death merchants.

.
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He has already used those words,together with human trafficking and slave labour. All three illegal.
As usual ,headlines…
This one is 2014

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/06/11/pope-francis-arms-manufacturers-are-merchants-of-death/

Another one.

ncronline.org/blogs/making-difference/pope-francis-first-world-peace-day-message

“I appeal forcefully,” writes the pope, "to all those who **sow violence **and death by force of arms: in the person you today see simply as an enemy to be beaten, discover rather your brother or sister, and hold back your hand!
 
graciew said:
Illegal.
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Human trafficking and slave labour are illlegal.

Arms manufacturers and investing are not illlegal. (And, as I pointed out earlier, it is inherently self-contradictory to make them so.)

So, again, I ask: how is it just to compare them?
 
styrgwillidar said:
They are government controlled. Are you familiar with export laws, the requirements for obtaining export licenses indicating which countries weapons (right down to small arms ammunition) are shipped and sold to? There are international agreements including embargoes to specific countries.
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Bearing in mind the topic, are you saying that there’s nothing wrong with the privatized arms industry?
 
LongingSoul said:
Bearing in mind the topic, are you saying that there’s nothing wrong with the privatized arms industry?
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There is nothing wrong with the privatized arms industry. Beretta makes a profit selling arms to the Swiss Guard to project Pope Francis. Good for them. It is unjust to scapegoat them.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Human trafficking and slave labour are illlegal.

Arms manufacturers and investing are not illlegal. (And, as I pointed out earlier, it is inherently self-contradictory to make them so.)

So, again, I ask: how is it just to compare them?
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Read in context,please. You are referring to an article in post 432 .
 
LongingSoul said:
Bearing in mind the topic, are you saying that there’s nothing wrong with the privatized arms industry?
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No, I was responding to a comment that the government(s) should be involved by pointing out they already are. Government is not always the solution to problems, government is staffed by human beings and prone to temptation and mistakes.
 
Brendan said:
It is, at least among the major world powers. A company like Boeing must receive approval from the US Government before it could sell military aircraft to anyone.

And even in your home Australia, you will notice that I cannot just go up to the ASC website, add a couple of Collins class subs to my cart and check out with my Amex 🙂

Arms sales ARE very much restricted.

The worldwide problems are not with the Boeings, the Lockheeds, the ASCs, the Thales Australias or even the Berettas. It is with third world nations that sell arms without such restrictions.

A great example is the AK. Quite a number of nations produce their own versions, it is simple and easy to do, and the then Soviet Union literally GAVE the plans and equipment to many third world allies at the time. There are probably a dozen manufacturing plants in Africa alone that are making them, or Soviet style Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPG;s) Those are the real sources of the illegal arms trades. And yes, most of those African, or Middle Eastern nations DO make a nice profit of it. They can charge a premium for ‘no questions asked’ sales that the Western arms manufacturers cannot legally do.
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Again, bearing in mind the topic… do you think that Pope Francis comments are exclusively directed towards those traditionally unfriendly countries arms industries and not to the arms industries in general across the ‘friendly’ world such as USA? Do you not think that he is addressing the profit driven agendas of all nations trades as being responsible for unwarranted violence and death in the world?
 
styrgwillidar said:
No, I was responding to a comment that the government(s) should be involved by pointing out they already are. Government is not always the solution to problems, government is staffed by human beings and prone to temptation and mistakes.
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And let’s not overlook the fact that, with few exceptions, governments are the entities making the choice to go to war, whether justly or unjustly.

Calling for more government regulation to prevent wars when governments are the entities that wage war seems pretty ridculous.
 
styrgwillidar said:
No, I was responding to a comment that the government(s) should be involved by pointing out they already are. Government is not always the solution to problems, government is staffed by human beings and prone to temptation and mistakes.
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I think that some ‘body’ invested in ethical and moral behaviour, has to prevail over certain industries and that includes the weapons industry. Privatisation has been the cause the escalation of greed driven markets in the world that is causing havoc for the poor and powerless.

Pope Francis speaking for the Catholic Church, is duty bound to be a voice of morality when the normal cultural guardians of morality have been compromised. There is a problem with capitalist greed infecting our cultures that is resisting the authority of the government to operate for the common good of all. Governments can make mistakes but in the free world we have a democratic system that keeps the mistakes to a redeemable limit.

Government owned and operated is still the best solution for particular industries most prone to exploitation in my opinion. What other constraint is there against these types of monster industries?
 
LongingSoul said:
I think that some ‘body’ invested in ethical and moral behaviour, has to prevail over certain industries and that includes the weapons industry. Privatisation has been the cause the escalation of greed driven markets in the world that is causing havoc for the poor and powerless.

Pope Francis speaking for the Catholic Church, is duty bound to be a voice of morality when the normal cultural guardians of morality have been compromised. There is a problem with capitalist greed infecting our cultures that is resisting the authority of the government to operate for the common good of all. Governments can make mistakes but in the free world we have a democratic system that keeps the mistakes to a redeemable limit.

Government owned and operated is still the best solution for particular industries most prone to exploitation in my opinion. What other constraint is there against these types of monster industries?
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This is magical thinking at its worst.

There is the “body” of government. It is the primary cause of war. It already prevails over the arms industry. The worst countries are those where the government owns and operates the arms industry (e.g. North Korea).

There is the “body” of the Church. It has no power to compel compliance. It is not democratic.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
This is magical thinking at its worst.

There is the “body” of government. It is the primary cause of war. It already prevails over the arms industry. The worst countries are those where the government owns and operates the arms industry (e.g. North Korea).

There is the “body” of the Church. It has no power to compel compliance. It is not democratic.
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What is your position then? Keep the status quo and chalk up the poverty and powerlessness caused by capitalist greed to collateral damage? Pope Francis is not a government power of course, but the Church has a mission on this earth to speak up on morality and its influence derives from the obedience of Catholic citizens who elect the governments.

If all Catholics were obedient to Church teaching, gay marriage would not exist in the world.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
This is magical thinking at its worst.

There is the “body” of government. It is the primary cause of war. It already prevails over the arms industry. The worst countries are those where the government owns and operates the arms industry (e.g. North Korea).

There is the “body” of the Church. It has no power to compel compliance. It is not democratic.
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Throughout the history of the world the government often turns it’s power against it’s own citizens, in addition to North Korea, just in the last ~120 years:
…Russia (how many millions of dead starved by their own government?)
…China (Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution-- again millions)
…Armenian genocide
…Cambodia (the killing fields)
…Germany (Holocaust)

Various African, South American, Asian, and Mid-Eastern countries doing the same, oppressing their own folks. Fox and the henhouse-- those often put in place to proved the moral guidance to prevail over industries end up being the ones to apply them in unethical ways. Of course, they almost always justify it to themselves. But, if they control it they can ensure their intended victims are defenseless.
 
styrgwillidar said:
Throughout the history of the world the government often turns it’s power against it’s own citizens, in addition to North Korea, just in the last ~120 years:
…Russia (how many millions of dead starved by their own government?)
…China (Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution-- again millions)
…Armenian genocide
…Cambodia (the killing fields)
…Germany (Holocaust)

Various African, South American, Asian, and Mid-Eastern countries doing the same, oppressing their own folks. Fox and the henhouse-- those often put in place to proved the moral guidance to prevail over industries end up being the ones to apply them in unethical ways. Of course, they almost always justify it to themselves. But, if they control it they can ensure their intended victims are defenseless.
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Exactly. But, more importantly, it is governments which choose to go to war. Not arms manufacuteres and investors. WWI, WWII, etc.
 
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