Pope: seminaries must teach Latin Mass

[Angels_Watchin]

Sooo…you can’t oppose the tridentine mass being taught and seminaries and get to heaven.

my my my…you just keep expanding that list and you’ll be very lonely up there…

You can’t oppose the Tridentine Mass being taught BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CONTRARY TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.

This is pretty black and white, isn’t it?

But yes - the “going to” or “not going to” heaven is entirely up to Him.

 

[irenaeus1]

Sooo…you can’t oppose the tridentine mass being taught and seminaries and get to heaven.

Not without some severe purgation first…

just kidding!

 

[bones_IV]

Sooo…you can’t oppose the tridentine mass being taught and seminaries and get to heaven.

my my my…you just keep expanding that list and you’ll be very lonely up there…

It’s like Father John Corapi said, “Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out.”

 

[Digitonomy]

You can’t oppose the Tridentine Mass being taught BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CONTRARY TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.
This is pretty black and white, isn’t it?

Your statement is pretty black and white, but I don’t know where you find in Church teaching that the Tridentine Mass must be taught.

 

[bones_IV]

Your statement is pretty black and white, but I don’t know where you find in Church teaching that the Tridentine Mass must be taught.

I don’t see anywhere in Church teaching that the TLM mass shouldn’t be taught.

Dear Father, I wasn’t sure if this was appropriate to state here on the forums here, but here it goes. I was dismayed when I heard this one. A bishop said, “mumbling in Latin serves no purpose”. I was thinking to myself, “really”? And he believes this? I’ve never been to a Latin Mass myself, but now I feel obliged to join what the bishop calls “mumblers”. Whatever that means. If the Pope allows the TLM to be said by any Priest without the permission of the Bishop then the Bishop HAS NO RIGHT TO FORBID IT. Am I not right here? A Priest’s obedience to the Bishop isn’t absolute. Especially when the Bishop is disobedient to the Holy Father. Just because the Latin Mass isn’t required doesn’t give the Bishop any right whatsoever to ban it.The Bishop doesn’t have the authority to overrule the Pope’s Motu Proprio. He is acting ultra vires. Father, why do we have so many bishops being defiant to the Holy Father? Either Jesus Christ gave the Church gave the Church the authority to bind and loose or he didn’t. Sometimes, Father, I think that some of these pastors of ours are Protestants in disguise. The Devil never sleeps.
Nick

Dear Nick, This is a true scandal of disobedience. Of course the priests of this bishop’s diocese have the duty to follow Rome and the Motu Proprio of the Holy Father,not the caricature of this bishop. This Latin Mass became the standard Mass of the Catholic Church in 1570 by St. Pius 5. It is irresponsible for anyone, especially a bishop, to interpret Latin, the official language of the Church, as “mumbling”. Let’s pray for this misinformed bishop critical of almost 500 years of Liturgical History. Fr. Bob Levis

Think before you speak.

 

[Digitonomy]

I don’t see anywhere in Church teaching that the TLM mass shouldn’t be taught.

Agreed. It is a matter of discipline. The rumored requirement is an instruction from a Vatican dicastery which is frankly a good idea. However, it does not constitute a teaching of the Church.

 

[Sr_Sally]

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/dec07/trainee-priests.htm

Corroborated here:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2007/11/important-ecclesia-dei-to-ask.html

Do we have any info from something other than a blog?

 

[bones_IV]

Agreed. It is a matter of discipline. The rumored requirement is an instruction from a Vatican dicastery which is frankly a good idea. However, it does not constitute a teaching of the Church.

We are talking about being defiant towards the Holy Father. To disobey the moto proprio is disobeying the pope which is church teaching.

 

[Digitonomy]

We are talking about being defiant towards the Holy Father. To disobey the moto proprio is disobeying the pope which is church teaching.

Actually, the topic of the thread is the rumor that Latin Church seminaries will be required to teach the Tridentine or extraordinary form of the mass. The motu proprio mentions nothing about seminaries.

Secondly, it is incorrect to suggest that any order from the pope constitutes Church teaching. In the matter at hand, the pope will reportedly require instruction and practice for seminarians in celebrating the TLM. In recent years, there has been no such requirement, and in the future this pope or another could reverse this order, without any damage to or change in Church teaching.

 

[childofmary1143]

Actually, the topic of the thread is the rumor that Latin Church seminaries will be required to teach the Tridentine or extraordinary form of the mass. The motu proprio mentions nothing about seminaries.

Secondly, it is incorrect to suggest that any order from the pope constitutes Church teaching. In the matter at hand, the pope will reportedly require instruction and practice for seminarians in celebrating the TLM. In recent years, there has been no such requirement, and in the future this pope or another could reverse this order, without any damage to or change in Church teaching.

Yes the topic of this thread is the “rumor” that Latin Church seminaries will be required to teach the EF Mass.

However if an official Vatican document (which a Motu Proprio is) is released then while that document may not be considered a teaching of the Church, it is a teaching of the Church to OBEY it.

 

[Brendan]

Whats the point to that? The Tridentine Mass is more common then the Novus Ordo in Latin. Besides, diocesan seminaries are already supposed to teach enough Latin for priests to celebrate the Mass, in either the Old or the New Rite.

I would have to disagree. Here in Detroit, several parishes have offered the NO in Latin. One parish offered nothing but the Latin NO Mass. Every Mass, every day from 1972 - 2004 (when the pastor retired).

Granted, with the MP now in effect, several parishes are converting their Latin NO Mass to the EF Mass, but in the case of my parish, we are actually adding the EF to the Mass schedule, while retaining our Latin NO Mass.

 

[Holly3278]

Excellent news! I long for the day when I can go to a Tridentine Mass in my area.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/dec07/trainee-priests.htm

Corroborated here:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2007/11/important-ecclesia-dei-to-ask.html

The two articles are misleading where they don’t provide a quote from the Pope, mandating that seminaries teach the TLM.
.

For all we know, the Pope merely asked that seminaries train priest in Latin, who desire to say the TLM, rather than have them mimic the words, if they chose the say the TLM.

Not having an official document, I’m skeptical of the accuracy of the story.

Jim

 

[Angels_Watchin]

We are talking about being defiant towards the Holy Father. To disobey the moto proprio is disobeying the pope which is church teaching.

Bones, I couldn’t have said it better myself!

and JimR - I didn’t read the links - I accepted the title of the thread as being accurate. (I should know better by now!)

 

[OriginalJS]

I can’t understand the resistance. A Mass is a Mass regardless of the language in which it is conducted. As far as teaching priests enough Latin to conduct a Mass, that should take about six weeks (assuming a modicum of language ability.) As for the laity, it won’t take them long either. The responses are quickly learned. Nobody is going to have to be a Latin scholar. I have never heard a homily or announcements delivered in Latin, for example. For those who treasure the tradition, the Tridentine Mass will likely be a delight. I am old enough to remember my elders who complained after English came in, that they didn’t feel like they had been to church they missed the Latin so.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I can’t understand the resistance. A Mass is a Mass regardless of the language in which it is conducted. As far as teaching priests enough Latin to conduct a Mass, that should take about six weeks (assuming a modicum of language ability.) As for the laity, it won’t take them long either. The responses are quickly learned. QUOTE]

This is only true if you’re going to have priest and laity merely memorize the latin words of the Mass. However, if you want them to understand the words of the Mass, as they do in their own language, for priest it will take years. The laity in general, will not get to that point.

Why should the Mass be celebrated in any language other than that of the people?

I’m not talking about Masses at the Vatican, where people from all parts of the world attend, but the parishes of the people. Why should they not hear the Mass in their own language? It makes no sense otherwise.

Jim

 

[Digitonomy]

This is only true if you’re going to have priest and laity merely memorize the latin words of the Mass. However, if you want them to understand the words of the Mass, as they do in their own language, for priest it will take years. The laity in general, will not get to that point.

I think you are confusing overall fluency in a language with fluency in a very limited vocabulary. Someone once asked my Spanish professor how long it took him to “think” in English. He said “Right away.” To some extent he was dodging the question, but he was also making a very good point. You don’t need to be able to conjugate verbs or assign masculine or feminine articles to a noun to be completely fluent in the phrase “Buenos dias, amigo,” and understand it as well as you do English.

A priest need not be able to converse at length with Caesar about the campaign in Gaul in order to recite the words of the mass in Latin, understand each word as he’s saying it, and mean it. As much as a priest tries to take to heart every word he says in English when celebrating the mass, some portion of the verbiage is going to come out without thought as simple rote recitation - he’s only human. I really don’t see much difference with Latin here - I think OriginalJS is probably pretty close to the mark with his 6 weeks guess.

 

[Angels_Watchin]

The people in the pew are not SUPPOSED TO BE RESPONDING.

It is not a dialog Mass, we’re just supposed to be participating SILENTLY.

And with a missal, that’s almost a no-brainer. - It does take a few weeks to get accurate with the “following along”. And then a few more with flipping to the propers at the right time.

But we don’t have to know any Latin.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

I’m talking about those who oppose teaching the latin mass

you can’t be pro-abortion and enter the kingdom of heaven
you can’t be pro-gay and enter the kingdom of heaven
you can’t be radical feminist and enter the kingdom of heaven

DOESN’T WORK THAT WAY!

Some archbishops have discouraged the Latin Rite in their diocese. In my diocese it has been swept into a dark corner.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The people in the pew are not SUPPOSED TO BE RESPONDING.

It is not a dialog Mass, we’re just supposed to be participating SILENTLY.

And with a missal, that’s almost a no-brainer. - It does take a few weeks to get accurate with the “following along”. And then a few more with flipping to the propers at the right time.

But we don’t have to know any Latin.

We don’t have to know any Latin to attend Mass and follow along.
However, the goal of Vatican II was not to just have us follow along, but to participate more fully in the Mass. This is best done in the language of the people who are in attendance.

I have attended many Latin Masses over the past 10 years or so, and I use my missal. In fact, I followed the Mass on TV, Jan 1st, by Pope Benedict XVI, from Rome. It was in Latin. There is no way, I can understand and participate as fully as I do when the Mass is in English. Those who argue otherwise are grasping at straws.

I’ve seen the same people insist that the official language in the US should be English. Gee, why not Latin?

Jim