Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

[rien]

My local bishop is going or trying to work around giving Catholic support yo gay adoption. Catholic World Report ran a big piece on that 3 months back. The pries at the liberal parish near me insures the congregation that there will not be a move in this parisj to a pre-Vatican II mentality.

I suspect this decree, if it comes, will be largely ignored in the US. There seems to be a lot of angry Catholics who don’t want to go back. A co-worker whoe grew up in the 50s told me today it is right wing Catholics pushing this. This will cause protest I am sure from the pews if they try it here.

 

[ReConverted]

Re-Converted,regardless of his own preferences, your local Bishop is answerable to Rome and Rome has spoken!

I do not know of your local Bishop but am confident he will be aware of this. Am also confident he is in total union with and accepts the authority of Rome.

I didn’t say that. I quoted someone else in this thread, hence the quote box.

 

[Trident59]

JKirk,

'You don’t see this as problematic? “My way?” “We’re working on it?”

I’m a convert and the Tridentine leaves me cold (and an abused NO Mass leaves me angry, so you’ll know I’m not one of the “flower children” who thinks that the celebration is about “us” or “the community”). What are we working toward?’

No, as a matter of fact, I don’t see a problem!
And I am working with a group to request a Tridentine Mass in a part of our state that does not have access to one. At present we have over 200 families willing to attend. So that is the “working on it”.

For 40 years people like me have put up with the Novus Ordo. We have attended the Mass out of obedience to our Bishops, not for a love of the Pauline rite. Most of us do not deny the validity of the Pauline rite. So don’t get your tail feathers ruffled.

There is plenty of room for both rites. I mean heck, the Dominicans can say their Ancient Rite and do so monthly in Portland, Oregon. So those of us that prefer the Tridentine Rite would like access to “our” preferred rite.

 

[Ignatius]

Randy Carson,

I, too, am a convert. Almost 37 years ago I came into the church. For several years my wife and I discussed the abuses of the Mass. I told her that I wished that they would celebrate the Tridentine Mass like when I came in. She responded that I didn’t know what the TLM looked like. That set off a vigorous discussion. So she said that she had heard about a location that was doing the TLM but it was 385 miles away. So I said “Let’s go” and we did. Boy, was she right! It was a first for me. And I fell hopelessly in love with the TLM. That was in about 1975.

My love for the TLM has not diminished.

Just returned from Mass at my new NO parish. The Mass was nice and reverent but the recessional hymn was “Go Tell It On the Mountain”.

Oh, well. Can’t have it all my way. At least not yet.

But we are working on it.

I am waiting in eager anticipation for TLM to be given an indult in those diocese in which the current Bishops refuse to comply with the previous request of the Vatican that it be made widely available. It can’t be soon enough for me.

 

[DaniB]

Did Luther or Henry VIII or ANY of the founders of any of the major Protestant denominations, for example, break with the Church because they couldn’t attend the TLM? Or rather did some of them do so for the opposite reason - because they DIDN’T LIKE having Mass in Latin??? Or for completely different reasons - for example they disapproved of the Papacy or the Church as an institution?

The development of Lutheranism and Anglicanism is rather complex, and reading the works of both Luther and Henry VIII (and historical documents) make it clear that it was more about personal issues bleeding into theological issues than any one point of contention.

Why on earth would you even suggest that these denominations came about because Luther and Henry VIII didn’t like having mass in Latin?

 

[DaniB]

My local bishop is going or trying to work around giving Catholic support yo gay adoption. Catholic World Report ran a big piece on that 3 months back. The pries at the liberal parish near me insures the congregation that there will not be a move in this parisj to a pre-Vatican II mentality.

I suspect this decree, if it comes, will be largely ignored in the US. There seems to be a lot of angry Catholics who don’t want to go back. A co-worker whoe grew up in the 50s told me today it is right wing Catholics pushing this. This will cause protest I am sure from the pews if they try it here.

The point is that it is not up to the local bishops or even people in the pews.

There is no pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II mentality. When Vatican II documents are not distorted in an attempt to promote heresy, they are consistent with the timeless truth that exists only in the Holy Catholic Church.

That’s MHO, anyway.

 

[palmas85]

I’ll tell you about the Latin Mass.

My parents were divoirced when I was about two and got back together when I was about 11. My Dad was in the oil exploration business, and we went with him on his next contract – to northern Peru. The town where we lived was “different” – there was electricity only 6 hours a day, there was no hot water (if you wanted it hot, build a fire), and during Cholera season, you boiled all your water and filtered it. The filters were too slow to keep up with our thirst.

When we arrived, one of ouir first outings was to find the church. What a shock! It was empty – no pews, kneelers, or anything like that. Mom explained you knelt on the stone floor.

The artwork was garish, frightening – of course it was Indian, and done by local craftsmen.

For our first mass, we found ourselves jammed in the church, back to belly. Most of the people were small – adults not much taller than I. They were barefoot and barrel-chested, and the women wore derby hats – often several at a time, stacked one on top of the other. Most of these people spoke indian dialects, not Spanish.

Here and there over the crowd, you’d see taller people, pure Castillians – who of course spoke only Castillian.

Then the Mass began, and everyone responded in Latin – from memory. I felt a lot better. I knew I was in my Father’s house.

No, no my friend, you must be mistaken on this one. I must point out to you that in other forums here, particularly in the Liturgy and Sacraments Forum, it has been repeatedly brought out that third world Catholics the poor ones at least, are incapable of learning Latin or at a minimum it is of no importance to them whatsoever.

Your memory must be playing tricks on you.

 

[LilyM]

The development of Lutheranism and Anglicanism is rather complex, and reading the works of both Luther and Henry VIII (and historical documents) make it clear that it was more about personal issues bleeding into theological issues than any one point of contention.

Why on earth would you even suggest that these denominations came about because Luther and Henry VIII didn’t like having mass in Latin?

I was thinking about the relative quickness with which at least some of the Protestant denominations adopted the idea of having all of their liturgy in the vernacular. I’ll admit I’m fuzzy as to which denominations may have held on to Latin for a time and which didn’t.

I was thinking as well as the oft-cited term ‘Cranmer table’ for a freestanding altar, which innovation I presume was actually introduced by Cranmer. So clearly there was a feeling quite early on in the Reformation against some aspects of the TLM.

And given this and the championing by Protestants of vernacular for the Bible and other formal prayers as well as Sacred Liturgy, it seems reasonable that a desire for vernacular and dislike of other aspects of the traditional Mass may have played a part in the very genesis of the Reformation.

 

[DaniB]

… it has been repeatedly brought out that third world Catholics the poor ones at least, are incapable of learning Latin or at a minimum it is of no importance to them whatsoever…

Can you please PM me with a link to this data. I question its validity and would like to read up on it.

Thanks!

 

[DaniB]

I was thinking as well as the oft-cited term ‘Cranmer table’ for a freestanding altar, which innovation I presume was actually introduced by Cranmer. So clearly there was a feeling quite early on in the Reformation against some aspects of the TLM.

Not necessarily. Remember that many Anglicans do not consider themselves part of the “Reformation,” as Henry VIII rather strongly detested Luther and considered Anglicanism to be English-Catholicism-sans-Pope moreso than Protestantism. That said, the Reformation developed in such a way that it wanted to distance itself from anything too visibly Catholic, lest it be associated with the Pope. It’s not necessarily so much that anything within the celebration of the mass was disliked on its own ground as it was a general dislike of anything associated too closely with the Catholic Church.

I also think the economic factors played an undeniable role.

And given this and the championing by Protestants of vernacular for the Bible and other formal prayers as well as Sacred Liturgy, it seems reasonable that a desire for vernacular and dislike of other aspects of the traditional Mass may have played a part in the very genesis of the Reformation.

The “championing by Protestants of vernacular for the Bible” is something they really only focused on LONG after the Reformation itself, as a matter of justification.

The Catholic Church had printed the Bible in the vernacular long before Luther ever dreamed of doing so. There were more than 13 German translations available before Luther’s.

I don’t think that any historical study of the Reformation shows that the true reason for Protestant Denominations and Anglicanism is a result of a desire for the vernacular, dislike for Latin, or dislike for the mass.

 

[palmas85]

Can you please PM me with a link to this data. I question its validity and would like to read up on it.

Thanks!

Which data? That certain posters on other forums are of the opinion that third world Catholics can’t or won’t learn Latin? Check out the Liturgy and Sacraments section of this forum.

 

[palmas85]

The point is that it is not up to the local bishops or even people in the pews.

There is no pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II mentality. When Vatican II documents are not distorted in an attempt to promote heresy, they are consistent with the timeless truth that exists only in the Holy Catholic Church.

That’s MHO, anyway.

There are many that will disagree with you on that. There is definitely a difference in the two.

 

[DaniB]

Which data? That certain posters on other forums are of the opinion that third world Catholics can’t or won’t learn Latin? Check out the Liturgy and Sacraments section of this forum.

Since you seemed to be basing your point on this, I assumed (perhaps foolishly) that you were going on more than the “opinion” of “certain posters on other forums.”

I checked the Liturgy and Sacraments section, but couldn’t find this off-hand. I’m not yet terribly adept at using this forum, however, and so assumed (again, perhaps foolishly) that since you were using this to make your point you would know exactly where it was and would charitably help your neighbor find it.

Mea culpa.

Dani

 

[DaniB]

There are many that will disagree with you on that. There is definitely a difference in the two.

What is the difference. Can your position be proven using Vatican II documents in comparison with pre-Vatican II documents?

 

[bro_brian]

The tough part is this. Many Holy Roman Catholics have never experienced the Beauty and Majesty of the TLM. I am a Brother of the Church who has accepted his vows and I regulally attend the TLM and I walk out feeling more in touch with God and the Saints than ever. The missals of 1962 have the translations on the opposing page which allows for you to follow and be involved just like the NO so that should never concern the faithful. This Mass is nothing to be afraid of but rather it is the Mass of the ages and something to embrace. Think of the great Popes and Saints who attended this Mass and I know that could help you make a decision to be assisting at the Mass.

We do however need the Bishops to not fear the TLM. the priests are there if trained. It is not going backwards, it is embracing the faithful of the ages. Traditionalists see it this way, Rome meets with everyone (Orthodox, Hindu, Buddhist) and conceded to even the states conscrecation of Bishops in China but they feel they are only carrying on the Rite of the Roman Church and they feel shunned by their Bishops and those who are afraid of the Ancient Mass. They should not be treated this way. I will admit though there is a left wing and a right wing in this agruement. The Traditionalist can be very abusive of the NO and they want to be embraced but only at the agreement the NO will go away. This is not realistic or needed. We need reverence and sometimes we fail as Roman Catholics to care enough to report the failures of a few bad priests. We need to stand up and be counted.

Roman Catholic is Roman Catholic. Can the NO Mass be done correctly? Is the the Lord present? Yes to both but the guitar playing priests walking down the aisle and the lack of reverence needs to be addressed. We need to realize we are in the Lord’s house and he is present and we need to be respectful.

In closing, it is funny to notice since the priests have started to illictly change the Mass the Bishops have failed to act and bring them back to the liturgy agreed upon in Rome. Not freelancing. I know I grew up in a NO Parish with good priests and it is still a great place to assist at Mass. There are standards that need to be kept.

Fear not the Mass!

Bro. Brian

 

[Sixtus]

Then the Mass began, and everyone responded in Latin – from memory. I felt a lot better. I knew I was in my Father’s house.

No, no my friend, you must be mistaken on this one…

Your memory must be playing tricks on you.

Now isn’t that amazing, someone relates in graphic detail about ‘what they remember’ and the response is 'no no my friend your memory must be playing tricks on you!

If the correspondent said that is what happened then that is what happened.

Why attack? Why call them fool and mistaken?

Sister or Brother, I believe you. God bless you and thank you for sharing. It was interesting reading

 

[Goblin_Taters]

I regulally attend the TLM and I walk out feeling more in touch with God and the Saints than ever. The missals of 1962 have the translations on the opposing page which allows for you to follow and be involved just like the NO so that should never concern the faithful.

I can relate with you feeling more in touch with God and the Saints. One problem I have though is figuring out where everyone is in the Mass. Although I have my missal before me, it sometimes seems that the priest has jumped several parts (since the prayers are silent). I’ve come up with a rule that greatly helps me: if I get lost, flip five pages forward and I usually am in the spot I’m supposed to be.

I guess the Mass is easier to follow with time.

Oh well, I think I’ll stick with the Divine Liturgy for now. It’s in English.

This Mass is nothing to be afraid of but rather it is the Mass of the ages and something to embrace. Think of the great Popes and Saints who attended this Mass and I know that could help you make a decision to be assisting at the Mass.

I agree with you, and I don’t understand why there is this widespread opinion that the Old Mass was something deficient. I know well-respected theologians who speak of the priests who offered the Old Mass as having “their backs to the people.” Well, I might ask, did the saints and Fathers, when they offered Mass/Divine Liturgy for hundreds of years before Vatican II, have their backs to the people?

Anyhow, a person who attends a TLM or a DL knows that the assertion that the priest “has his back to the people” has very little merit. Rather, one faces in the same direction as the priest!

The Traditionalist can be very abusive of the NO and they want to be embraced but only at the agreement the NO will go away. This is not realistic or needed. We need reverence and sometimes we fail as Roman Catholics to care enough to report the failures of a few bad priests. We need to stand up and be counted.

Roman Catholic is Roman Catholic. Can the NO Mass be done correctly? Is the the Lord present? Yes to both but the guitar playing priests walking down the aisle and the lack of reverence needs to be addressed. We need to realize we are in the Lord’s house and he is present and we need to be respectful.

I agree that the Traditionalists are often very abusive of the NO. But can they be wholly blamed for this? If we look at the controversies of the early Church, many of the liveliest theological disputes were over at first seemingly innocuous opinions. I mean, look at what Arius really said!

Now, I realize that the disputes of the early Church do not exactly paralell with the Liturgical disputes of today, but it appears to me that it does matter what Mass is in the Church. It’s not simply a matter of whether or not Christ is in the Mass, whether or not the Mass is valid. Vatican II calls the Mass the source and summit of the Christian life, and I firmly believe in the truth of this. Although the Mass is not primarily catechetical, the Mass is the inspiration and instrument that shows us how to live a holy life of service to God. We learn how to pray through the liturgy, and we learn how to place all things in perspective according to divine truth. Theology is derived from the Mass, as it is in the Liturgy that the Scripture takes on its corporate understanding and the Holy Fathers, Doctors and Saints are commemorated for their lives in service to Truth.

I’m sure that reverence can be found in a NO Mass. I’ve seen it at many. However, does the NO Mass dispose one towards an attitude of reverence? In walking in on a NO Mass, does an individual automatically sense that he is walking into a mysterious, holy activity?

For me, I find it challenging to see how the NO and TLM can truly co-exist within the same communion. Granted, variety in Liturgy is possible and even beneficial, but the spiritual life that each Liturgy fosters is very much different from the other. The NO has cut down on “excessive” signings of the cross, genuflections, etc. The homilies of NO Masses rarely have as their theme the need to repent, or the dangers of sin. NO Masses are oftentimes offered without incense. The garments in the NO Masses are much simplified. The statues are few and the stained glass, if any, is quite often very modern and bears little resemblance to sacred art.

All these and more, while not neccessary for the “validity” of the Mass (they are not required for Christ to be present in the Sacred Species), are nontheless very important to the understanding of the Church.

There is more to being Catholic than simply accepting the Creed, the dogmatic beliefs of the Church, and what the Pope has infallibly defined. Being Catholic is living the difficult yet free life of Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Christian reverence is learned from the Mass, and one gives reverence back to and in the Mass.

 

[SnorterLuster]

One problem I have though is figuring out where everyone is in the Mass. Although I have my missal before me, it sometimes seems that the priest has jumped several parts (since the prayers are silent). I’ve come up with a rule that greatly helps me: if I get lost, flip five pages forward and I usually am in the spot I’m supposed to be.

I think that is a problem for many people when they are first attending the TLM. You are right though, the longer you go the the Mass, the easier it is to keep track. After you have been at it a while you will notice some of the cues that occur. Where the priest is standing or what the servers are doing. In many places you will see in the missal something like “the priest says the first three words aloud” or “the priest kisses the altar.” Look at the red print in the missal and it will tell you what cues to look for.

 

[Morning_Star15]

I agree with you, and I don’t understand why there is this widespread opinion that the Old Mass was something deficient. I know well-respected theologians who speak of the priests who offered the Old Mass as having “their backs to the people.” Well, I might ask, did the saints and Fathers, when they offered Mass/Divine Liturgy for hundreds of years before Vatican II, have their backs to the people?

Anyhow, a person who attends a TLM or a DL knows that the assertion that the priest “has his back to the people” has very little merit. Rather, one faces in the same direction as the priest!

Exactly When my Chaplain first celebrated Mass ad orientem (it was an NO Mass, the only difference being it was ad orientem - he’s working his way up slowly to the TLM ) he explained before the Mass the fact that he wouldn’t have his backs to us, but that we would all be facing the same direction, and he made the analogy of a steersman on a boat facing the same direction as the rowers in order to guide them - in the case the direction we’re looking towards is Christ (as symbolized by facing east, towards the rising sun). I thought this was a very nice explanation.

I guess it’s more of a cultural and social thing, that we think it’s rude if someone is talking with their backs to us, so it was a bit of a mental adjustment for me. But what I liked about the Mass being done this way was that it emphasized the fact that the Mass is really about communicating with God, and I found it easier to focus on God when I got tired of looking at the priest’s back As a student, I’m used to attending lectures where the lecturer faces the audience in order to communicate with them. But with the ad orientem Mass, I realized how little the priest communicates with the congregation (he turned to us the few times that he spoke to us, and during the homily) and how it’s all centred around communication with God. I know it sounds obvious, but I just found it easier to be aware of that fact when the priest wasn’t facing me - I think we tend to get the impression that when someone’s facing us, they’re speaking to us.

So aside from the initial adjustment period, I really like Mass being done ad orientem, and I’m looking forward to finally going to a fullscale TLM - I’ve never been to one before. This Chaplain wants to start doing the TLM, but first he needs to get a copy of the 1962 Missal, which he says he hasn’t been able to find for under $150 - anyone know where he could find a more affordable copy, or is that about as good as it gets?

Karolina

 

[TNT]

I admit I have not read any of these post except the first & last few.
But I will stick my neck waaay out regarding:
“** Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church”

This ain’t gonna happen. Period. Further, he would NEVER override a bishop’s perogative to control the exercise of rites in his diocese with his pastors.

The only possibility of this happening is IF the SSPX accepts ALL the documents of VAT II FIRST. (Highly unlikely).
In which case they would get their own regional or national overseer(s) and be exempt to some extent from the local Ordinary rulings on the exercise of the Mass & Sacraments…similar to the Anglican Use arrangement. That’s about as universal as it gets.

**