Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

[mystified]

Waiting for the Motu Propio seems to be a very popular pastime. It is an old maxim that Rome moves slowly, and this is an example.
Prediction: When it is finally published, it won’t make everyone happy.
Whether it’s the 1500-year-old Mass in Latin, or the various newer forms in hundreds of tongues, the central thing is that Our Lord comes to us in the Mass, Body and Blood.
I personally like the Tridentine Mass, no matter which way the priest is facing. I like the NO in Latin, English or Spanish, provided it is celebrated in a reverent manner. Hold the dancing girls!
One of the earlier posters mentioned the St. Joseph Sunday Missal, yep, I still have mine. It was even arranged for dialog Mass, where the priest was willing…don’t know if the bishop had veto rights or not.
I remember attending a dialog Mass for braceros, and they enthusiastically participated by responding in Latin, although their language was Spanish. In the Army, under the Military Ordinariate, the dialog Mass was quite common…no rattling rosaries, no on-going conversations and not even children (dependents) playing with toys in the aisles.

 

[MikeDunphy]

Validly translated? I hope you’re not taking the extremely dangerous position of suggesting the words of consecration used in the NO are invalid?

I’m saying the words currently in use are incorrectly translated.

As for communion - you have every right to receive kneeling and on the tongue at NO, and I see more than a few people doing one or both of these at the NO masses I attend. As for your hands not being fit to handle the Body of Christ - what makes them less fit than your unconsecrated tongue and mouth or your unconsecrated throat??? :ehh:

While I am inspired by those very few people I see at Novus Ordo Masses that receive Holy Communion kneeling, I prefer to remain unobtrusive.

My unconsecrated mouth and unconsecrated throat simply swallow and problems with receiving by mouth are virtually unheard of. My unconsecrated hands can drop crumbs and putting the Body of Christ in those unconsecrated hands puts me in a position of unwarranted control over my Lord and Savior. A couple months ago, I found a host stuck between the pages of a hymnal in our Church. This type of abuse would happen less if the laity were not permitted to handle the Eucharist.

Ans unity with the saints - what about our current day saints? Blessed Mother Teresa? John Paul 2 of blessed memory (may he be sainted soon)? So you seriously think they one iota the less saintly for attending and celebrating NO Masses?

I do not wish to debate the relative merits of those two good people as compared to the great saints of the past. In the Traditional Mass I hear echoes of centuries of prayer and praise, and see the Sacred as clearly as my clouded vision permits. Less so in the new Mass. But if the new Mass helps you draw closer to heaven, then stick with it, and praise God.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I am a cradle Catholic - although I grew up post Vatican 2 I have plenty of family members and friends (including a fair few priests) who were well and truly into their adulthood when the NO arrived. Not a one of 'em that I know of prefers the TLM :nope: not that they dislike it either.

So, as much as I respect your love of the TLM, and even though I do want to see a much broader availability of it for those who want it, your attitude is far from a universal one.

Sorry trying to see what my attitide was. I stated that I liked the TLM and found it easy when traveling to follow the Mass. So what was my attitude?

I go to the NO there are a few places I won’t go to (I dislike Polka Mass and Teen Mass) but as I need to go to various places and celebrate Mass I would like to see it more regulated for the sake of following it.

 

[Trident59]

Randy Carson,

I, too, am a convert. Almost 37 years ago I came into the church. For several years my wife and I discussed the abuses of the Mass. I told her that I wished that they would celebrate the Tridentine Mass like when I came in. She responded that I didn’t know what the TLM looked like. That set off a vigorous discussion. So she said that she had heard about a location that was doing the TLM but it was 385 miles away. So I said “Let’s go” and we did. Boy, was she right! It was a first for me. And I fell hopelessly in love with the TLM. That was in about 1975.

My love for the TLM has not diminished.

Just returned from Mass at my new NO parish. The Mass was nice and reverent but the recessional hymn was “Go Tell It On the Mountain”.

Oh, well. Can’t have it all my way. At least not yet.

But we are working on it.

 

[BobP123]

First of all let me state that as of the last 10 yrs or so, I have attended only the TLM. It is the Mass (or Rite) in which I am totally comfortable. My Latin is limited but I’m learning it to appreciate the Mass I love in full. I figure if someone were to pay me a million dollars to learn a language, I’d do it, so isn’t something as venerable and poetic and beautiful as the TLM is towards God worth even more?

As far as the Novus Ordo is concerned, I’ll accept it as valid because Pope Paul VI allowed it, even though Vatican 2 did not order any new mass. However, I have never seen or heard Pope Paul VI give his stamp of approval on the English translation of his allowed Latin Novus Ordo. In fact, the Vatican has repeatedly asked that the vernacular be more truer to the Latin. Recently the Vatican has decreed that the “for all” be replaced by “for many.” It read “within the next year” but we know that translates to “immediately.” Why? Because what Christ did not say cannot be tolerated anymore by the Catholic Church.

If anyone wants to continue claiming the validity of the English Mass, then let him/her show one, just one, even Protestant, Bible, where the words “for you and for all” are stated.

But whether you disagree with me or not, please, please, implore your pastors to change the wording of the consecration to conform to what the Vatican has decreed.
It won’t make that much difference to me as I’ll continue to attend the TLM, but at least I’ll know that we attend the same Mass albeit different Rite.

God Bless

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by Rolltide:

Edit: Here’s an article just yesterday indicating that this is virtually a done deal:

wdtprs.com/blog/2007/01/pope-…identine-mass/

The catch, as demonstrated by the abvove article: A more widespread offering of the TLM, “though probably only in the low-key setting of a ‘private’ celebration.”

Something doesn’t sound right there.

 

[LilyM]

Sorry trying to see what my attitide was. I stated that I liked the TLM and found it easy when traveling to follow the Mass. So what was my attitude?

I go to the NO there are a few places I won’t go to (I dislike Polka Mass and Teen Mass) but as I need to go to various places and celebrate Mass I would like to see it more regulated for the sake of following it.

Your attitude being one of preferring the TLM.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Your attitude being one of preferring the TLM.

Sorry you feel that way. I will pray for your understanding that a preference is not an “ATTITUDE”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry you feel that way. I will pray for your understanding that a preference is not an “ATTITUDE”.

There seems to be a tendency for some people to regard and brand any disagreement at all as “attitude.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

First of all let me state that as of the last 10 yrs or so, I have attended only the TLM. It is the Mass (or Rite) in which I am totally comfortable. My Latin is limited but I’m learning it to appreciate the Mass I love in full. I figure if someone were to pay me a million dollars to learn a language, I’d do it, so isn’t something as venerable and poetic and beautiful as the TLM is towards God worth even more?

As far as the Novus Ordo is concerned, I’ll accept it as valid because Pope Paul VI allowed it, even though Vatican 2 did not order any new mass. However, I have never seen or heard Pope Paul VI give his stamp of approval on the English translation of his allowed Latin Novus Ordo. In fact, the Vatican has repeatedly asked that the vernacular be more truer to the Latin. Recently the Vatican has decreed that the “for all” be replaced by “for many.” It read “within the next year” but we know that translates to “immediately.” Why? Because what Christ did not say cannot be tolerated anymore by the Catholic Church.

If anyone wants to continue claiming the validity of the English Mass, then let him/her show one, just one, even Protestant, Bible, where the words “for you and for all” are stated.

But whether you disagree with me or not, please, please, implore your pastors to change the wording of the consecration to conform to what the Vatican has decreed.
It won’t make that much difference to me as I’ll continue to attend the TLM, but at least I’ll know that we attend the same Mass albeit different Rite.

God Bless

The Holy See permitted, for years, the translation of pro multis as “for all” (the texts used HAD to be approved before use). The Holy See also answered dubiums on whether or not this rendered the Mass invalid. The answer was always consistently that it did NOT render the Mass invalid. In the last directive (to have it more faithfully rendered from the Latin), we were assured that Masses have been valid up until that point. So, “at least you (sic) know that we attend” (and always have) “the same Mass albeit a different rite.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Oh, well. Can’t have it all my way. At least not yet.

But we are working on it.

You don’t see this as problematic? “My way?” “We’re working on it?”

I’m a convert and the Tridentine leaves me cold (and an abused NO Mass leaves me angry, so you’ll know I’m not one of the “flower children” who thinks that the celebration is about “us” or “the community”). What are we working toward?

 

[LilyM]

Sorry you feel that way. I will pray for your understanding that a preference is not an “ATTITUDE”.

I didn’t mean attitude in a negative sense at all - the word simply means point of view, or preference if you will. Like I said, not everyone (in fact not most people) who grew up with the TLM prefers it to the NO.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Like I said, not everyone (in fact not most people) who grew up with the TLM prefers it to the NO.

I keep seeing you say this. I can only speak from my own experience, but I am the only one in my family who didn’t quit going to Mass immediately with the institution of the N.O. It took me awhile, but I got to the point with all the abuses that I quit going to Mass for years. It was only when I found the TLM being said here that I returned. My extended family split about 50/50. About half just gave up in the 70s and left the Church. About half stayed but most quit doing anymore than the bare minimum as Catholics. A few embraced the changes and were just as happy as a mosquito in a nudist camp–including a cousin that has had four Catholic marriages and three Catholic annulments.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I keep seeing you say this. I can only speak from my own experience, but I am the only one in my family who didn’t quit going to Mass immediately with the institution of the N.O. It took me awhile, but I got to the point with all the abuses that I quit going to Mass for years. It was only when I found the TLM being said here that I returned. My extended family split about 50/50. About half just gave up in the 70s and left the Church. About half stayed but most quit doing anymore than the bare minimum as Catholics. A few embraced the changes and were just as happy as a mosquito in a nudist camp–including a cousin that has had four Catholic marriages and three Catholic annulments.

But we could keep this up endlessly. I know and worship with Catholics who were reared under the old Mass who have no nostalgia for it at all…and they are faithful and devout people. Not everyone wants it back.

 

[LilyM]

I keep seeing you say this. I can only speak from my own experience, but I am the only one in my family who didn’t quit going to Mass immediately with the institution of the N.O. It took me awhile, but I got to the point with all the abuses that I quit going to Mass for years. It was only when I found the TLM being said here that I returned. My extended family split about 50/50. About half just gave up in the 70s and left the Church. About half stayed but most quit doing anymore than the bare minimum as Catholics. A few embraced the changes and were just as happy as a mosquito in a nudist camp–including a cousin that has had four Catholic marriages and three Catholic annulments.

I don’t know a single person - not among my family or friends of the Vatican 2 generation - who stopped going to Mass or neglected any of the other sacraments BECAUSE of the change to NO :nope:

I accept that there are many who disapproved of changes to the Mass - and plenty who may have stopped going to Mass because of them. The vast majority of people I know of (within and ouside those personally known to me) who have left the Church, however, have done so for any reason and every reason apart from changes to the Mass.

The debate on contraception and the release of Humanae Vitae, for example, which was a huge disappointment to many who were expecting the Church to OK the use of contraception. Given that something in the region of 70% or more of nominal Catholics are currently disobedient to the Church’s teaching on contraception, and probably have been since the invention of the Pill, I’d say this has had a much larger impact.

Did Luther or Henry VIII or ANY of the founders of any of the major Protestant denominations, for example, break with the Church because they couldn’t attend the TLM? Or rather did some of them do so for the opposite reason - because they DIDN’T LIKE having Mass in Latin??? Or for completely different reasons - for example they disapproved of the Papacy or the Church as an institution?

 

[SnorterLuster]

But we could keep this up endlessly. I know and worship with Catholics who were reared under the old Mass who have no nostalgia for it at all…and they are faithful and devout people. Not everyone wants it back.

I agree totally. That’s why I said that I could speak from my own experiences only. I am in a very conservative part of the country that may have had totally different reactions to the changes from other parts of the country.

 

[SnorterLuster]

I don’t know a single person - not among my family or friends of the Vatican 2 generation - who stopped going to Mass or neglected any of the other sacraments BECAUSE of the change to NO :nope:

And I do, so your point is?

I accept that there are many who disapproved of changes to the Mass - and plenty who may have stopped going to Mass because of them. The vast majority of people I know of (within and ouside those personally known to me) who have left the Church, however, have done so for any reason and every reason apart from changes to the Mass.

I didn’t say that there weren’t other reasons. Even in my examples people I know may have had other reasons, but they said it was because the Mass no longer meant as much to them.

The debate on contraception and the release of Humanae Vitae, for example, which was a huge disappointment to many who were expecting the Church to OK the use of contraception. Given that something in the region of 70% or more of nominal Catholics are currently disobedient to the Church’s teaching on contraception, and probably have been since the invention of the Pill, I’d say this has had a much larger impact.

Who knows, since the release of Humanae Vitae was in 1968, the new missle in 1970 may have been the last straw. Since, as you say, 70% of today’s Catholics ignore the ban on ABC, maybe the figure would be lower if the Church hadn’t lost so many of the traditionally inclined. We could speculate forever on this “chicken & egg” scenario.

Did Luther or Henry VIII or ANY of the founders of any of the major Protestant denominations, for example, break with the Church because they couldn’t attend the TLM? Or rather did some of them do so for the opposite reason - because they DIDN’T LIKE having Mass in Latin??? Or for completely different reasons - for example they disapproved of the Papacy or the Church as an institution?

I really don’t know why the Protestants broke away. Lack of Faith, maybe? Or maybe it was like Henry VIII, he wanted an annulment that the Pope wouldn’t issue.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I am among those that left the church for a time and tried looking for the “never changing” worship that I had been taught. It took me 12 years to fully come back. It was a long trip but well worth it.

My situation was a little different as I came from a traditional small town Catholic Church and was dropped into San Francisco since I was in the Air Force at the time. The changes were just toooo fast and extreme for me. Going from what I knew to what I did not understand.

My husband and I are back to a more conservative area where our family is part of a NO parish that tends to be conservative and more traditional. A small town with small town traditional family values. God in his Mercy has placed us into this area where we can work, live and worship Him. Our life is not for everyone, but, it suits us well.

 

[Sixtus]

My understanding is that his Holiness does not intend to replace that existing with that which went before, or vice versa.

He is merely permitting us to make choices.

Personally, I can see the both co-existing.

It does not matter whether one is conservative or liberal, there will no doubt be times when one feels a need to participate in the one and at different times, the other.

It is also my hope that this is also a move to bring about closer unity with our Orthodox Sisters and Brothers.

 

[Sixtus]

my local bishop… is dead set against the Tridentine Mass.

Re-Converted,regardless of his own preferences, your local Bishop is answerable to Rome and Rome has spoken!

I do not know of your local Bishop but am confident he will be aware of this. Am also confident he is in total union with and accepts the authority of Rome.