Pope strongly defends Priestly celibacy and consecrated virginity

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He had small children at the time and has a new child with his new wife. Those who say that a married man cannot fully dedicate his life to ministry are being proven wrong daily by deacons such as the one I mention here.

We have to keep in mind there are no written rules for these situations, these are extraordinary circumstances; thus the need for dispensation from Rome.
Hello Deacon,

While I agree that lots of Deacons are doing wonderful jobs, there is a difference between what Deacons do and Priests. In today’s church (at least in America) we do not have access to priests like we should (in my opinion). Not enough scheduled Confessions, don’t see them enough at Adoration, not enough Devotionals, etc. Married Priests require wives which who work or have money for other means. A Priest’s salary is simply not as large as a Protestant minister’s salary.

Good Priests visit elderly members of the Parish in their homes, go to Hospitals, etc. If married Priests join the Roman ranks, then larger Parishes will need more priests. The number of priests per Parish member will need to increase.

But with that said, I think it should be the expection, not the rule. And if the Roman Rite ever does allow married men to become Priests, I feel that they should be Deacons first. Perhaps a rule like you must be a min of age 45 or 50.

Again I am not saying that I completely oppose married men becoming Priests, but if it were to ever happen, must be the exception do not the rule and should be harder to become on if married.
 
I strongly support allowing the priest or nun to decide for themselves whether they want to lead a celibate life with no pressure from the Church. It is unnatural for a person not to marry and have marital relations.
And really tjones, priest and nuns could get married probably for the first 800 years of the church’s history…the decision for required celebacy is a church law that can be changed… but this pope (francis) does not feel led by the Holy spirit in that way…

Yes, sex is good…and we all like it, it is very natural, we are all in agreement with that 🙂

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster\
Monks and nuns have never been permitted to engage in sexual intercourse at any time in the history of the Church.

The first monastics were the Desert Fathers and Desert Mothers in the third century. They moved to the desert and fought against the carnal passions. They lived celibate lives of prayer and fasting.

People who have sexual intercourse cannot be called monks or nuns.

Married clergy is a different matter because celibacy is not an integral part of the priesthood.
 
Hello Deacon,

While I agree that lots of Deacons are doing wonderful jobs, there is a difference between what Deacons do and Priests. In today’s church (at least in America) we do not have access to priests like we should (in my opinion). Not enough scheduled Confessions, don’t see them enough at Adoration, not enough Devotionals, etc. Married Priests require wives which who work or have money for other means. A Priest’s salary is simply not as large as a Protestant minister’s salary.

Good Priests visit elderly members of the Parish in their homes, go to Hospitals, etc. If married Priests join the Roman ranks, then larger Parishes will need more priests. The number of priests per Parish member will need to increase.

But with that said, I think it should be the expection, not the rule. And if the Roman Rite ever does allow married men to become Priests, I feel that they should be Deacons first. Perhaps a rule like you must be a min of age 45 or 50.

Again I am not saying that I completely oppose married men becoming Priests, but if it were to ever happen, must be the exception do not the rule and should be harder to become on if married.
Yet the Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) have always had married parish priests.

If the Holy Father does decide to ordain married men in the Latin Church, none of us should have a problem with that.

God Bless
 
Hello Deacon,

While I agree that lots of Deacons are doing wonderful jobs, there is a difference between what Deacons do and Priests. In today’s church (at least in America) we do not have access to priests like we should (in my opinion). Not enough scheduled Confessions, don’t see them enough at Adoration, not enough Devotionals, etc. Married Priests require wives which who work or have money for other means. A Priest’s salary is simply not as large as a Protestant minister’s salary.

Good Priests visit elderly members of the Parish in their homes, go to Hospitals, etc. If married Priests join the Roman ranks, then larger Parishes will need more priests. The number of priests per Parish member will need to increase.

But with that said, I think it should be the expection, not the rule. And if the Roman Rite ever does allow married men to become Priests, I feel that they should be Deacons first. Perhaps a rule like you must be a min of age 45 or 50.

Again I am not saying that I completely oppose married men becoming Priests, but if it were to ever happen, must be the exception do not the rule and should be harder to become on if married.
Just a couple of points, first I am not speaking in favor of a married priesthood, I think there are good reasons to keep celibacy in tact as the discipline of the Latin Rite Church.

The points I make are along the lines of, if you want to argue against a married priesthood, use good arguments. Too demanding for a married priest is not a good argument neither is “the pay is too low.” Make your arguments on solid ground, scripture and theological arguments. I don’t buy these two arguments because I see different realities in the diaconate and the few married priests that we do have; there is one assigned in my diocese.

There are ways of operating a married priesthood in the same manner the married diaconate is. I cannot be a pastor and I hold a secular job to support my family. I do not think a secular job is a place for a Catholic priest, but there are paid jobs in many places in diocesan and parish offices which can be filled by priests. Just a thought.

To open the priesthood entirely to married men will kill vocations of young men to the priesthood in my opinion. Why would a young man 18 years old choose celibacy if it were not the norm? Our seminaries are beginning to see a large increase in enrolment. I agree it should be the exception not the rule.
 
Yet the Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) have always had married parish priests.

If the Holy Father does decide to ordain married men in the Latin Church, none of us should have a problem with that.

God Bless
I agree with you. If the Holy Father ever allows it, I will be fine with it.

Though without research and numbers, I believe that the Roman Rite parishes are typically larger than the Eastern ones. Meaning each priest in the Roman Rite must attend more flock and or even help at different Parishes.
 
Just a couple of points, first I am not speaking in favor of a married priesthood, I think there are good reasons to keep celibacy in tact as the discipline of the Latin Rite Church.

The points I make are along the lines of, if you want to argue against a married priesthood, use good arguments. Too demanding for a married priest is not a good argument neither is “the pay is too low.” Make your arguments on solid ground, scripture and theological arguments. I don’t buy these two arguments because I see different realities in the diaconate and the few married priests that we do have; there is one assigned in my diocese.

There are ways of operating a married priesthood in the same manner the married diaconate is. I cannot be a pastor and I hold a secular job to support my family. I do not think a secular job is a place for a Catholic priest, but there are paid jobs in many places in diocesan and parish offices which can be filled by priests. Just a thought.

To open the priesthood entirely to married men will kill vocations of young men to the priesthood in my opinion. Why would a young man 18 years old choose celibacy if it were not the norm? Our seminaries are beginning to see a large increase in enrolment. I agree it should be the exception not the rule.
Thank you for the clarification. I totally agree and you make great points
 
I agree with you. If the Holy Father ever allows it, I will be fine with it.

Though without research and numbers, I believe that the Roman Rite parishes are typically larger than the Eastern ones. Meaning each priest in the Roman Rite must attend more flock and or even help at different Parishes.
Yes, but I assume the Holy Father would only allow married men to be ordained in larger numbers, if he thought that would increase the number of total priests significantly.

Also, larger parishes, or multiple parishes, should in theory be able to better financially support a married priest with a family.

God Bless
 
To open the priesthood entirely to married men will kill vocations of young men to the priesthood in my opinion. Why would a young man 18 years old choose celibacy if it were not the norm? Our seminaries are beginning to see a large increase in enrolment. I agree it should be the exception not the rule.
Yet the Eastern and Oriental Churches have always had married parish priests, and celibate monastics priests and one has not “killed off” the other.

God Bless
 
It is only unnatural to a society that is obsessed with sex and which opposes the spiritual dimension of man.
And the ones who criticize the Catholic Church for having celibates ignore the fact that other religions have them, too.
 
And the ones who criticize the Catholic Church for having celibates ignore the fact that other religions have them, too.
But criticizing other religious would be racist, discriminatory and intolerant. :rolleyes:

Gee, I thought you already knew that…😃
 
I strongly support allowing the priest or nun to decide for themselves whether they want to lead a celibate life with no pressure from the Church. It is unnatural for a person not to marry and have marital relations.
My friend do you realize that there is a difference between priesthood and religoius life?

Celibacy is not essential to the priesthood. A married man can be ordained a deacon and later a priest. The celibacy requirement only applies to those men who are born Latin Catholics and to some of the Eastern Catholic Churches, not to the entire Catholic Church.

However, celibacy is essential to the religious life. Therefore marriage and religious life are completely incompatible. A man cannot be a monk, friar or religious brother unless he makes a vow of chastity. A woman cannot be a nun or a sister, unless she makes a vow of chastity. If you take away the vow, you dismantle the religious life.

The religious life is the state in which the Evangelical Counsels are lived for the sake of the Kingdom God. The religious is a man or a woman who enters into an individual covenant with God to live the Evangelical Counsels out of love fo r him and for the Church.

This covenant must be lived out in an intimate brotherhood or sisterhood, as was the relationship between Christ and his apostles. The religious must be like Christ, who was the firstborn among many brothers. To be like Christ, he lives free of all other attachments, including biological family and marriage. This frees him to love his brothers or sisters in community.

You say that it is unnatural for a person not to marry or have marital relations. But I, whom an a religious, say to you that it is unnatural to rise from the dead. The person who called me into an unnatural covenant with him, did the unnatural and the unthinkable. He got up and walked out of his tomb.

I did not choose the religious life, because the pope or the Church imposes it as is. It was Christ who chose me. I simply responded to an invitation.
 
For those calling for marriage in the priesthood, I question you this:

Say a priest enters the seminary and lives in a rectory and then meets a girl and gets married. Where does she live? Does she get a job, or does she get paid by the parishioners as well? Who pays for things like health care, insurance, etc.

Now say they have a child (And in marriage you have to be open to children.) Who pays for the child? What kind of schools will the child go to, public, or private? Who pays for that? Who pays for the material things that a child needs to sustain and grow? Will the child live in the rectory as well?

What if they have a child and he gets sick one Sunday. How can a priest take care of a sick child on Sundays and still say mass and care for his parishioners as well?

What if a priest has a wife who is pregnant, and she goes to labor. Then he gets a phone call that someone is about to die and needs Anointing of the Sick. Where does he go? Who does he serve?

What if the priest and wife don’t get along? What if one wants to leave the other? Could you imagine a priest getting a divorce?

There are so many logistical reasons and practical reasons that priests shouldn’t marry, it’s not as simple as “Let them get married and have sex!” And that’s not including the scandal that could occur in multiple scenarios of a priest being married.

It’s just not a good idea, for many, many reasons. Married men are called to be fathers to their children, Priests are called to be spiritual fathers to many people. It is not reasonable or practical for them to do both. There is beauty and service in the celibacy of the priesthood.
 
For those calling for marriage in the priesthood, I question you this:

Say a priest enters the seminary and lives in a rectory and then meets a girl and gets married. Where does she live? Does she get a job, or does she get paid by the parishioners as well? Who pays for things like health care, insurance, etc.

Now say they have a child (And in marriage you have to be open to children.) Who pays for the child? What kind of schools will the child go to, public, or private? Who pays for that? Who pays for the material things that a child needs to sustain and grow? Will the child live in the rectory as well?

What if they have a child and he gets sick one Sunday. How can a priest take care of a sick child on Sundays and still say mass and care for his parishioners as well?

What if a priest has a wife who is pregnant, and she goes to labor. Then he gets a phone call that someone is about to die and needs Anointing of the Sick. Where does he go? Who does he serve?

What if the priest and wife don’t get along? What if one wants to leave the other? Could you imagine a priest getting a divorce?

There are so many logistical reasons and practical reasons that priests shouldn’t marry, it’s not as simple as “Let them get married and have sex!” And that’s not including the scandal that could occur in multiple scenarios of a priest being married.

It’s just not a good idea, for many, many reasons. Married men are called to be fathers to their children, Priests are called to be spiritual fathers to many people. It is not reasonable or practical for them to do both. There is beauty and service in the celibacy of the priesthood.
Whether I agree or disagree with a celibate priesthood or not, these are terrible arguments against a married priesthood.

The office of “priest of Jesus Christ” is much, much more than these simple temporal and human issues.
 
While I agree that there are logistical questions to be answered, I’m confused as to why we’re not discussing the real issues. At the end of the day the Church has proven that the financial concerns, birth control, and living arrangements can be overcome. We do it everyday.

However, why do I get the impression that so many posters here are not familiar with the Itinerarium? You can’t discuss an issue such as this unless you know how to journey into the mind of God and understand why he wants celibate men for some of his Churches.

My other question is why is everyone speaking about the priesthood using the Latin paradigm? There are 23 Churches that make up the Catholic Church. Of those, less than 5 required that men be celibate to be ordained. Why does everyone keeping saying that CATHOLIC PRIESTS must be celibate or should marry? Are not the priests of the 18 churches who do not have mandatory celibacy Catholic? Are the example of how they juggle marriage and priesthood not valuable?

Then there is an historical question. The Church stopped allowing priests to marry very early in her history. Why are people not making the distinction that ALL 23 churches make. A priest cannot marry, but a married man can be ordained a deacon or a priest?

Finally, Why are people referring to priests as “consecrated”? The term consecrated man or consecrated life only applies to men or women who make vows in a religious community. Sixty person of Catholic priests remain secular men. This means that they never make any kind of vows and do not belong to a community of consecrated life. They make two very simple promises: not to get married and to obey their bishop. The promise not to get married is a promise of celibacy. But this is different form the vow of chastity that consecrated religious make. The promise to obey the bishops is also very different from the vow of obedience that consecrated religioius make. It is less binding in many many ways.

The material issues have been resolved by the Eastern Catholics. We don’t need to discuss those. We can look at them and take lessons. That’s what the Latin Church does when it ordains clerics who come from the Episcopal and Lutheran churches. She applies the same rules of economics and daily living as she uses for Eastern Catholic priests who are married.

The question remains open. Why are we stuck on discussing what the Church has resolved, the material aspect?

Why are we calling the priesthood something that it’s not, consecrated life?

Why are we ignoring the fact that the question about ordaining married men is only taking place in one out of 23 churches that make up the Catholic Church?

Why are we not making the journey into the mind of God to understand why God wants a celibate priesthood in 18 of the 23 churches that are under the Bishop of Rome?

All of the rest that is being discussed here has already been discussed over the last 2,000 years and answers have been found.

I guess that if people want to rerun the material and ignore the ecclesiology and the mystical dimension of celibacy, there is not much of a contribution that I can make here. I for one would rather just look to the East and see how these questions have been resolved or pick up the Code of Canon Law for Oriental Churches.

I bring these points up, because I feel very strongly that every time that Roman Catholics discuss this question, they slap the Eastern Catholics in the face. The Roman Catholics discuss the question as if our concerns were valid for the entire Catholic Church. They’re not. We present our answers as if they’re valid for the entire Catholic Church. They’re not. We don’t even look over to the East to see how it has already answered these questions. We try to reinvent the wheel, because in our minds the East does not exist or they got it all wrong. I’m not sure which. But we’re being offensive and dismissive not to think of the entire Church or not to be specific enough to say that this is an issue for only 1/23 Catholic Churches.
 
I’m confused as to why we’re not discussing the real issues…
Hello Brother,

I am replying to your whole post more or less but wanted to save room.

I just want to make sure I understand correctly: you are saying we should rather say that the Latin Rite Church requires her priests to be celibate, correct? That’s how we should say it, correct? (As opposed to saying that the Catholic Church - full stop - requires it for her priests)? But that all Catholic priests make a promise not to get married so, e.g., in the event (if they are already married) that their wife should pass on, they are not permitted (on account of their promise) to take a new wife?
 
I believe in priestly celibacy in the Latin Rite and I believe this is a good statement by the Holy Father.

Hopefully it also, in a way, closes this door for a time.
 
Hello Brother,

I am replying to your whole post more or less but wanted to save room.

I just want to make sure I understand correctly: you are saying we should rather say that the Latin Rite Church requires her priests to be celibate, correct? That’s how we should say it, correct?
Actually it’s the Latin Church. A ritie is a way in which we celebrate liturgy.

For example in the Latin Church, Roman Catholics can celebrate the liturgy using the Roman Rite (most common), Carthusian Rite, Dominican Rite, Carmelite Rite, Ambrosian Rite, or Mozarabic Rite.

In the Eastern Churches, the most common rite is the Byzantine Rite which is used by more than one Church. But they have other rites as well.

All of the Catholic Churches in union with the Bishop of Rome

What I’m saying is that all of this discussion seems to a) center on either issues that have been resoved by the Eastern Catholics, such as financial and family concerns or b) ignore what God has in mind for the Latin Church, since the discussion is about ordaining men in the Latin Church, not the Catholic Church.

Stop calling the Latin Church THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. It is the largest of all the Catholic Churches, but IT IS NOT the Catholic Church. We can’t make the issue of one Church the issue of the whole Church. And we can’t simply ignore the experience of the whole Church nor can we refuse to journey into the mind of God when the answer to our questions lies in that direction. St. Bonaventure, Catherine of Siena and Teresa of Avila gave us the tools to journey into the mind of God and we’re not using them.
 
Actually it’s the Latin Church. A rite is a way in which we celebrate liturgy.
Thank you. Alright so the Latin Church requires a promise of celibacy for her priests and that they be single for ordination and remain celibate but for other Churches this is not necessarily the case: these permit a man to be married upon ordination but that he make a promise, in effect, not to marry again and practice celibacy if his wife should pass on?
Stop calling the Latin Church THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. It is the largest of all the Catholic Churches, but IT IS NOT the Catholic Church.
That sounds a little awkward. Are you saying if someone should ask me where a/the local Catholic Church is or might be I should not point out any of the local Latin parish churches? They are the only ones around here. Aren’t all the Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome “Catholic” and, therefore, also fully Catholic Churches? All I mean to say is that there must be some sense in which both the Latin and Eastern Churches in communion with Rome can be called “Catholic”, otherwise we are going to have a tough time finding any Catholic Churches 🙂
We can’t make the issue of one Church the issue of the whole Church.
I think I understand what you are saying here: it would be wrong to give the impression that a peculiar practice or discipline of one of the Churches is necessary for all of the Catholic Churches in the world, lest people get the impression that those other Churches aren’t also fully members of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?
 
Thank you. Alright so the Latin Church requires a promise of celibacy for her priests and that they be single for ordination and remain celibate but for other Churches this is not necessarily the case: these permit a man to be married upon ordination but that he make a promise, in effect, not to marry again and practice celibacy if his wife should pass on?
That’s right. The Latin Church and maybe two of the other Churches will ordain only celibate men, with some exceptions. In the other Catholic Churches, they will ordain married men.

None of the Churches allow deacons, priests or bishops to marry after ordination. This practice stopped very early in the history of the Church. My impression is that it may have stopped as early as the 2nd century, not long after the death of the last apostle. I’m not an historian. I can’t tell you the exact year.
That sounds a little awkward. Are you saying if someone should ask me where a/the local Catholic Church is or might be I should not point out any of the local Latin parish churches? They are the only ones around here. Aren’t all the Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome “Catholic” and, therefore, also fully Catholic Churches? All I mean to say is that there must be some sense in which both the Latin and Eastern Churches in communion with Rome can be called “Catholic”, otherwise we are going to have a tough time finding any Catholic Churches 🙂
For the sake of simplicity, we simply say “St. Joseph Catholic Church” etc. When the need arises to make a distinction, as is the case on this subject, then we identify which of the Churches we’re speaking about. They are all truly and fully Catholic. They are different in disciplines. They also have a few doctrinal differences, but nothing earth shattering. One of the doctrinal differences is the doctrine on celibacy. In most of the Eastern Churches, celibacy is part of the vow of consecrated chastity. They don’t look at the two separately. In the Latin Church, we see celibacy as a discipline and chastity as a doctrine.

Our Latin/Roman idea is that celibacy is a discipline that is desired by the Holy Spirit for us, not for the whole Church.
I think I understand what you are saying here: it would be wrong to give the impression that a peculiar practice or discipline of one of the Churches is necessary for all of the Catholic Churches in the world, lest people get the impression that those other Churches aren’t also fully members of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?
That’s right.

This often hurts the Eastern Catholics, because the way that Roman Catholics speak it’s as if we’re the THE Church. It begs the question from the Eastern Catholics, “What are we, applesauce?” For example, the Malankar and Malabar Syrian Churches were founded by St. Thomas the Apostle. They do not follow the traditions handed down by Peter and Paul, but the traditions handed down by Thomas. Interestingly enough, they do require that only celibate men be ordained. Whereas the Greek Catholics, do not have this requirement. Among Greek Catholics, you must be celibate to be a consecrated religious such as a brother, but not to be a deacon or priest. Why not? Because in the theology of the Church, priests have never been considered to be consecrated religious and ordination is not the same kind of consecration.

In the ordination rite of the priest, his hands are consecrated, not his person. In the profession of vows of a brother, the entire man is consecrated: mind, body and soul.

On the other hand, only single men can become bishops, because a bishop is consecrated. This is true for the universal Church, not just Latin/Roman Catholics. Even the Orthodox Christians hold to this.
 
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