Pope suggests church could tolerate some civil unions

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saintjohnxxiii said:
Traditio is a sedevacantist website. They are not to be listened to at all as they are in schism with the Catholic faith. They deny the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. No Catholic should follow anything that they say.
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I was unaware of that but it really doesn’t matter that much since these are simple quotations
 
Origen52 said:
What you can’t seem to come to terms with is that as Catholics we don’t decide what the spirit is saying, the pope in union with the magisterium does that. And yes everyone, as pope Benedict has said, ultimately must follow their conscience, but as Catholics, only after seriously and respectfully considering the teaching of the church.

Think about the implication of your words,

I would even go as far to say that even if the Pope specifically declared as an infallible statement that civil unions were permissible, it would not be infallible because it would conflict with sacred tradition which carries more weight. A Pope can not make an infallible statement that conflicts with sacred tradition.

What you are saying is that you would break with the church. I hope you said this in a moment of anger, because infallibility, unlike the marriage laws, is dogma. As Catholics we agree to be bound by the teachings and decisions of the magisterium, not only when we agree but even when that which the church teaches is hard for us to understand and agree with. If we are Catholics we freely give our obedience to the church.

All that being said, why are you worrying about what might happen, remember,

34 ‘So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today’s trouble is enough for today.
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I am not bound by the magisterium if it is in error, it has nothing to do with my opinion. If the Pope declared tomorrow that gay marriage was permissible, not that he would it’s just an example, I would not feel bound to believe that in any way because he would be in direct conflict of both scripture and sacred tradition. Even the magisterium has to operate within God’s commandments.
 
Thorns said:
Why even have a pope if he only is reiterating what we all already know?

Ive asked this before somewhere, but I forgot the answer.
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Because he’s there to defend and uphold the Faith, to confirm the brethren in that Faith.

He’s not there to spin up novelties so we have something to do; he is there to defend the unblemished Apostolic Faith.
 
holy_face said:
I am not bound by the magisterium if it is in error, it has nothing to do with my opinion. If the Pope declared tomorrow that gay marriage was permissible, not that he would it’s just an example, I would not feel bound to believe that in any way because he would be in direct conflict of both scripture and sacred tradition. Even the magisterium has to operate within God’s commandments.
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Then you don’t understand infallibility. The doctrine itself teaches that the Holy Spirit would prevent the Church from ever formally and definitively teaching in error. It would never happen. As for me, I trust the Holy Spirit, and however it guides the Magisterium, because it certainly wouldn’t be into error.
 
The Magisterium is infallible under strict circumstances, which includes being aligned with sacred tradition and scripture. If it made a decision independent of those it would not be infallible. You are saying that it would never come to that due to the Holy Spirit which may be true, that is what we believe as Catholics. However, if for some reason the Magisterium taught something that conflicted with sacred tradition or scripture, a lot of things would be shattered at that point, it would definitely be very destructive.

In such a situation, I would rely on scripture and tradition as the guide as opposed to modern beliefs and interpretations. That would be the most safe way to go. I would also rethink some of the things the church has taught after the early church, if such a destructive thing happened.
 
holy_face said:
the magisterium is infallible under strict circumstances, not everything the church teaches is infallible.
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Right, but those who exercise the Magisterium rarely even claim it infallibly. It’s not like every motu proprio of the Pope says, “PS: This is infallible.” Infallibility is rare and exceptional.
 
Even if they don’t claim it is infallible is still must not conflict with sacred scripture and tradition, otherwise it is a false teaching.

Otherwise this would be a way to try and get around the issue, don’t claim it is infallible and therefore it is taught without having to adhere to the same standards.
 
holy_face said:
Even if they don’t claim it is infallible is still must not conflict with sacred scripture and tradition, otherwise it is a false teaching.

Otherwise this would be a way to try and get around the issue, don’t claim it is infallible and therefore it is taught without having to adhere to the same standards.
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This is true and the Catholic Encyclopedia actually gives an example of this happening with Pope John XXII and his teaching on the Beatific Vision (which he later reversed.) I think this falls into the category of “intent to define” where the pope may actually teach a doctrine, without intending to issue a definitive decision (in such case, error would be possible.) And infallibility does not necessarily cover an entire dogmatic decree, but only that portion that contains a specific definition/decision. (Source: Dogmatic Theology, Van Noort)
 
TheAdvocate said:
Then you don’t understand infallibility. The doctrine itself teaches that the Holy Spirit would prevent the Church from ever formally and definitively teaching in error. It would never happen. As for me, I trust the Holy Spirit, and however it guides the Magisterium, because it certainly wouldn’t be into error.
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Are you deciding where the Holy Spirit may lead the Magisterium? You say ‘it could never happen because the Holy Spirit would not let it happen.’ How do you know what the Holy Spirit will do?
 
on_the_hill said:
Are you deciding where the Holy Spirit may lead the Magisterium? You say ‘it could never happen because the Holy Spirit would not let it happen.’ How do you know what the Holy Spirit will do?
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Uhh… it is literally impossible for the Holy Spirit to lead the Magisterium into error. ???
 
If everything the Magesterium teaches is not infallible, since it must meet certain criteria to be so, it would be a natural conclusion to reach that the Holy Spirit does not lead the decisions of the Magesterium at all times. The Magesterium therefore can possibly be wrong about a particular issue if it is not something that has already been established by holy scripture or tradition.
 
The more I think about it the more I think how brilliant it is, this must have been all designed by the Holy Spirit to begin with. It puts people who want to change a traditional Church teaching in a real bind.
 
holy_face said:
If everything the Magesterium teaches is not infallible, since it must meet certain criteria to be so, it would be a natural conclusion to reach that the Holy Spirit does not lead the decisions of the Magesterium at all times. The Magesterium therefore can possibly be wrong about a particular issue if it is not something that has already been established by holy scripture or tradition.
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It is extremely true that not every official utterance of the people who exercise the Magisterium is infallible. I think of the very recent motu proprio Fidelis dispensator et prudens which, in fact, has nothing (or very little) to do with doctrine at all. It is an administrative document that deals with economics.

A statement can be wrong if it is not protected by the measures given by the Holy Spirit to the Church to guard her teaching. Nobody ever said everything the Pope/bishops say is infallibly correct. That ultramontane sort of view is wrong and harmful.
 
I think many fantasize about getting a Pope in power that will start making changes to the belief system one day and that they will have us under their control by invoking the Holy Spirit as their guide and authority.
 
holy_face said:
I think many fantasize about getting a Pope in power that will start making changes to the belief system one day and that they will have us under their control by invoking the Holy Spirit as their guide and authority.
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Holy face, what you are saying is that your PRIVATE interpretation would be better informed than that of the pope and all the bishops, who are being led by the Holy Spirit. That’s the decision Martin Luther came to, which is why he broke away from the church.

So you can follow your interpretation of God’s will but not as a catholic.
 
If any teaching was introduced that contradicted with sacred tradition or sacred scripture it would automatically be fallible (not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit), therefore I could in accordance with the Church’s own teachings about conscience, decide for myself whether or not to accept said teaching. I would personally defer to tradition and scripture over the 266th, 267th, or 268th Pope’s personal opinion.

I certainly wouldn’t be the only one because if such a thing happened it would be a firestorm. He would be pretty a much a rogue Pope at that point.
 
holy_face said:
If any teaching was introduced that contradicted with sacred tradition or sacred scripture it would automatically be fallible (not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit), therefore I could in accordance with the Church’s own teachings about conscience, decide for myself whether or not to accept said teaching. I would personally defer to tradition and scripture over the 266th, 267th, or 268th Pope’s personal opinion.

I certainly wouldn’t be the only one because if such a thing happened it would be a firestorm.
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It’s not possible for an ex cathedra statement to be proclaimed opposite to Church teaching. If an ex cathedra statement is proclaimed, it MUST be adhered to and followed under divine obligation. You are not at will to simply claim that you believe an ex cathedra statement to be fallible because you believe it contradicts natural law. The Holy Spirit keeps Popes from making ex cathedra statements contrary to natural law; trust in Him.
 
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