Pope tells bishops to have compassion on those with failed marriages [CNA]

[Seamus_L]

Divorce used to carry a stigma with it at one time as well. I know of Catholic cemeteries that would not alow people to be buried in family plots because they divorced and remarried. This went on as late as the early 1950’s.

 

[Minion_w_a_drum]

I don’t know how marriage prep can help marriages last. A good marriage is a result of two mature people, preferably strong in faith, building a life together. No prep can help them, the foundations were laid long before that. Just the fact that the church requires this course tells us everything about modern society and how ill equipped it is to raise people who are capable of lifelong marriage. The church is fighting a hard battle.

Then why on earth does the church require marriage prep???
I would think that marriage prep could flush out people who are ill prepared to marry. At that point, the church could refuse to marry them and thus save the people from years of anguish and torment. But by marrying people who have not been raised to uphold a life long vow, it seems to me the church is doing not only a disservice but is being disingenuous to members of the flock.

Again, just how I see it…

 

[Minion_w_a_drum]

The marriage vows are pretty straightforward, promising permanence and fidelity to one person until death. The vows are not hard to understand. They are made publicly, by the couple to each other in front of the whole community with God as their witness. But those making the vows have to mean what they say and intend to keep that commitment for life.

It seems that at some point after, say, 1960, vast numbers of people either ceased to mean what they were saying, or manufactured hundreds of loopholes in their heads which implicitly added an unspoken addendum to the vows: “But…, except…, if…” Maybe an aspect of marriage prep should simply be a review of what it means to make a vow for life, and to mean what you say.

I think the event, circa 1960, that changed things was the advent of no-fault divorce. This in my opinion was the major game changer of the century. Immediately you handed to either person in a marriage the ability to end a marriage for no reason, whatsoever. Therefore, there was created many a poor soul who married for life, took their commitment very seriously, and yet now are left out in the cold due to the actions of their spouse.

That is second to abortion as the travesty of the 20th century…

 

[Minion_w_a_drum]

Divorce used to carry a stigma with it at one time as well. I know of Catholic cemeteries that would not alow people to be buried in family plots because they divorced and remarried. This went on as late as the early 1950’s.

Used to carry a stigma??? I am happy to report that stigma, exclusion, judgment and sanctimonious condescension are all very much alive and well within the holy church of Rome…
Trust me, if you are a civilly divorced married person who attends parish events including Mass, you very well know the scowls, grimaces, stares and the (the worst of all) “pretend to not notice you” actions of which I speak. I swear, civilly divorced married Catholics are the scourge of the congregation. Imagine, the GALL of those ingrates who routinely mock and spit on the Lord Jesus by attending Mass after changing their mind on the “till death do you part” thing ( or had a spouse who changed his/her mind on the whole "till death do you part thing. The result is still the same…)

The church would be so much better off it limited the congregation to happy, properly wed couples… These deplorables need to be purged from the Church, they’re messing up the happy experience(s) for all of the happy people…

Or so goes my opinion.

 

[JimG]

Used to carry a stigma??? I am happy to report that stigma, exclusion, judgment and sanctimonious condescension are all very much alive and well within the holy church of Rome…
Trust me, if you are a civilly divorced married person who attends parish events including Mass, you very well know the scowls, grimaces, stares and the (the worst of all) “pretend to not notice you” actions of which I speak. I swear, civilly divorced married Catholics are the scourge of the congregation. Imagine, the GALL of those ingrates who routinely mock and spit on the Lord Jesus by attending Mass after changing their mind on the “till death do you part” thing ( or had a spouse who changed his/her mind on the whole "till death do you part thing. The result is still the same…)

The church would be so much better off it limited the congregation to happy, properly wed couples… These deplorables need to be purged from the Church, they’re messing up the happy experience(s) for all of the happy people…

Or so goes my opinion.

I am sorry to hear that this occurs, but it has not been my experience in any parish I’ve been in. I have no idea of who is or is not divorced in the congregation unless they are personal friends and they tell me. Among any given group of friends or acquaintances, I have no doubt that news of a divorce would spread, but it doesn’t lead to ostracism. In most cases, I suspect, people just don’t know what to say so they don’t say anything. The same thing happens with those who lose their spouse to death.

In any case there has never been a question of limiting a parish to properly wed couples. The only question at issue seems to be whether to receive communion.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Then why on earth does the church require marriage prep???
I would think that marriage prep could flush out people who are ill prepared to marry. At that point, the church could refuse to marry them and thus save the people from years of anguish and torment. But by marrying people who have not been raised to uphold a life long vow, it seems to me the church is doing not only a disservice but is being disingenuous to members of the flock.
it…

I suspect because the church doesn’t want people to live in sin.

 

[Paganus]

I am sorry to hear that this occurs, but it has not been my experience in any parish I’ve been in. I have no idea of who is or is not divorced in the congregation unless they are personal friends and they tell me.

Not my experience either. Divorce is quite common. However it is a scandal to remarry without an annulment.

 

[Paganus]

Then why on earth does the church require marriage prep??? .

Does it? I guess I was cheated. What did I miss?

 

[Minion_w_a_drum]

I suspect because the church doesn’t want people to live in sin.

How does marriage prep keep people from living in sin?

 

[Minion_w_a_drum]

Does it? I guess I was cheated. What did I miss?

Well it was required for me and my x, and the sunday bulletin states it is (at least a parish) policy.

Fear not, you were not cheated and you missed nothing. At one point in my prep we were told by the RE director the church’s stance on birth control, and then we got the RE director’s opinion on birth control. Let’s just say they were different… And since my x was not catholic (she was more of an atheist in retrospect), through out my marriage (marriage pre civil divorce that is) I had to try to defend the church’s stance on birth control and the first thing out of my spouse’s mouth was “well that is not what the RE director said!!!” And you want to know something??? My spouse was absolutely correct.

Trust me, you missed nothing. In fact, count your blessings that you did not sit through it.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

How does marriage prep keep people from living in sin?

It doesn’t. The sacrament of marriage does. I see marriage prep as a desperate attempt from the church to explain to the engaged couples what they are about to enter. Seems like so many people just don’t inderstand what marriage is anymore, including Catholics.

 

[Minion_w_a_drum]

It doesn’t. The sacrament of marriage does. I see marriage prep as a desperate attempt from the church to explain to the engaged couples what they are about to enter. Seems like so many people just don’t inderstand what marriage is anymore, including Catholics.

Absolutely. I could not agree more with your post. And the desperate attempt by the church is quite sad, actually. I view it as more of an insurance policy, paid to the church upon the civil divorce. When a married couple civilly divorces the church can state: " We are saddened and shocked at this result. We don’t understand how this civil divorce could happen. After all, we required them to attend our marriage prep program!" Voila, the church has successfully washed her hands clean of the civil divorce.

And yes, many don’t understand what marriage is any more. You know it. I know it. It is certain the church knows it. What I am saying is the church needs to acquire the stones to refuse to marry people whom they deem do not understand what catholic marriage is.

They could start with refusing to marry interfaith couples or when one or both spouses does not actively participate in their faith (IE: go to Mass.) That would be a great start.

 

[dans0622]

… And yes, many don’t understand what marriage is any more. … What I am saying is the church needs to acquire the stones to refuse to marry people whom they deem do not understand what catholic marriage is.

They could start with refusing to marry interfaith couples or when one or both spouses does not actively participate in their faith (IE: go to Mass.) That would be a great start.

Hello,

I’m not sure I agree with you about many people (Catholics) not understanding what marriage is. In your opinion, what, exactly, must a person understand about marriage before being allowed to marry? Or, put another way, what is it that many people do not understand about marriage? By “understand” do you mean knowledge alone or something else?

Your second comment is interesting but does not seem to have a connection with what preceded it (the reason for refusal is a lack of religious practice and not a lack of understanding).

Thanks for your time.

Dan

 

[gus]

When I was 22 yesrs old many many years ago I gave a solemn promise to God and my bride that I would stay married until death. I remember to this day the promise I made that day. My word is always important to me and I keep it on the smallest things. How much more important is it. as a sacrament with God as my witness
Apparently people whose word is a bond are no longer welcome in the Church

Personally I feel alienated and if there was some other place to go I would probably be there. The only conclusion one could make is that marraige is a sacrament only if you believe if is. Its very similar logic used to justify abortion "Its only a baby if it’s wanted if not it’s a clump of cells "
The only thing I can do is pray that the promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail will be kept.
I think I will leave these forums for now as they have become a cause for the near occasion of sin.
As for respect shown to a priest ,I think it’s wise to remember that almost without exception all heresy had its root with a priest.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Absolutely. I could not agree more with your post. And the desperate attempt by the church is quite sad, actually. I view it as more of an insurance policy, paid to the church upon the civil divorce. When a married couple civilly divorces the church can state: " We are saddened and shocked at this result. We don’t understand how this civil divorce could happen. After all, we required them to attend our marriage prep program!" Voila, the church has successfully washed her hands clean of the civil divorce.

And yes, many don’t understand what marriage is any more. You know it. I know it. It is certain the church knows it. What I am saying is the church needs to acquire the stones to refuse to marry people whom they deem do not understand what catholic marriage is.

They could start with refusing to marry interfaith couples or when one or both spouses does not actively participate in their faith (IE: go to Mass.) That would be a great start.

Hey. I’m in a Catholic-Protestant marriage. Yeah we feel the division at times but we still receive much joy and many graces and blessings in our SACRAMENTAL marriage.

 

[Lumen_Pro_Via]

Having officiated at many weddings – at times in extraordinary pastoral circumstances – over my years, I will just limit my comment to say that I find the image grotesque and the assessment to be wanting in the extreme.

I would somewhat agree, except that I saw a secular news article this past summer (don’t know whether the author of the piece was himself Catholic) commenting that the Catholic Church is so inept that it is unable to marry its own members. While I did not appreciate the sentiment, I could not help but think that from the outside looking in, that is exactly what it appears to many. We, as a Church, are indeed a poor witness to the world.

 

[tseleehw]

I would somewhat agree, except that I saw a secular news article this past summer (don’t know whether the author of the piece was himself Catholic) commenting that the Catholic Church is so inept that it is unable to marry its own members. While I did not appreciate the sentiment, I could not help but think that from the outside looking in, that is exactly what it appears to many. We, as a Church, are indeed a poor witness to the world.

This is very true. Even Pope Francis has gone on the record stating that he believes that over half of all marriages in the Church are null. Not exactly a stellar success rate. Quite the opposite, in fact. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with how the Church educates the faithful on the sacrament of marriage. The Church has not kept up with the times and has not done enough to challenge the secular world’s view of marriage as “until death or divorce”. Perhaps there are those within the Church that do not wish to do so. I would maybe not go as far to say that the Church is perpetuating a sham of a sacrament, but I am not sure there is the willpower within the Church to make the radical changes that appear to be necessary to reverse the the trend of young Catholics entering failing marriages.

 

[Minion_w_a_drum]

This is very true. Even Pope Francis has gone on the record stating that he believes that over half of all marriages in the Church are null. Not exactly a stellar success rate. Quite the opposite, in fact. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with how the Church educates the faithful on the sacrament of marriage. The Church has not kept up with the times and has not done enough to challenge the secular world’s view of marriage as “until death or divorce”. Perhaps there are those within the Church that do not wish to do so. I would maybe not go as far to say that the Church is perpetuating a sham of a sacrament, but I am not sure there is the willpower within the Church to make the radical changes that appear to be necessary to reverse the the trend of young Catholics entering failing marriages.

Trust me, I realize there are no easy answers to this and I’m sure my posts come across as very harsh, if not down right disrespectful. However, For the church to tip toe around and placate in any way the prospective brides and grooms lest they chase them away from the church, only to then dump 100% of the blame of the civil divorce on the same brides and grooms is down right wrong. You show me 1 parish that says no to marrying suspect or not ready couples (or skirting the regulations to appease either or both as was the case with my spouse) and I will show you 1000 parishes that will place the entirety of the blame for the civil divorce squarely on the couple and assign absolutely zero onto the church.

That is very wrong.

 

[tseleehw]

Trust me, I realize there are no easy answers to this and I’m sure my posts come across as very harsh, if not down right disrespectful. However, For the church to tip toe around and placate in any way the prospective brides and grooms lest they chase them away from the church, only to then dump 100% of the blame of the civil divorce on the same brides and grooms is down right wrong. You show me 1 parish that says no to marrying suspect or not ready couples (or skirting the regulations to appease either or both as was the case with my spouse) and I will show you 1000 parishes that will place the entirety of the blame for the civil divorce squarely on the couple and assign absolutely zero onto the church.

That is very wrong.

I definitely agree with you in that respect. The Church must share some, if not most of the blame in many cases. The whole process of educating couples and perhaps even the requirements for marriage must be reformed, that much is apparent.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

How does marriage prep keep people from living in sin?

Allright. Let’s start from the beginning.

The sacrament of marriage is crucial. Married people don’t live in sin. Unmarried people live in sin. The church is bending over backwards to help people live moral lives, amidst the culture that has fought a war on morality for a long time. Since we are all to an extent products of secular confusion, a high number of Catholics don’t understand what marriage is. So we now have marriage prep. The hope is that people will learn a thing or two and have their questions answerd, and to think seriously about what they are about to do. But it is probably not working because society is against us and most Catholics follow society, not the church and have completely secular understandings of marriage. Marriage prep thus accomplishes little.

I hope you understand what I am saying.