Pope to abolish theory of Limbo?

[gelsbern]

I find this a really interesting development. I can understand why many of you are fearful that abolishing the theory of limbo may in fact open up a can of worms so to speak! Looking from the outside in (as a Christ-follower in a protestant church) I think that by abolishing this state of limbo, the Church may in the process end up weakening the “argument” for infant baptism. One poster was saying that if infant baptism was no longer necessary that parents would no longer have responsibility for the salvation of their children. However, the Bible is quite clear that parents DO have a responsibility:
“Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates, so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land that the LORD swore to give your ancestors, as many as the days that the heavens are above the earth.” Deuteronomy 11:18-21
You are all probably well aware of the arguments for each side of infant baptism and believer’s baptism…right? I probably don’t need to go into that on this thread. However, my point is, that if it it not necessary for unbaptized infants to be baptised to go to Heaven, then it begins to put a question mark in many people’s heads of whether it is a necessity for ANY infant to be baptised to enter Heaven. Or is it rather based on individuals who believe, repent and desire to be identified as a Christ-follower…
I will be following this with interest.

Your sister in Christ

I would have to disagree with you. This is about unbaptised babies who are either aborted or stillborn and I don’t think this weakens the cause for infant baptism, but rather strenghthens it.

Limbo was a “feel good” invention because people couldn’t come to terms with a loving God allowing an innocent baby to suffer if it died before it was baptised, but maybe this is what needs to happen. If women believed their babies would be in hell if they have an abortion, perhaps abortion rates would drop.

As it is, this is just one of those things God has not revealed to us, and we must simply trust in His mercy when it comes to the souls of the unbaptised. There are many things man wants answered about how God works, but God in His own wisdom has kept certain things from us, perhaps He has done so in order to allow our faith in Him to grow.

After all, if we knew that an unbaptised baby would never suffer the fires of hell and went to Limbo, then that would be what would weaken the cause for infant baptism. Not knowing puts the onus on the parents to have the infant baptised as soon as possible.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’ve never understood limbo. I know why it isn’t actual dogma though. Its a load of lard.

How else would you explain this.

The Church has decreed that unBaptized persons who die with only Original Sin and no personal Sin DO NOT go to Hell and suffer the punishments of the damned.

Christ said in the Scriptures: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God…Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born of water and the Spirit (Baptism), he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” John 3:3-5

Christ also says that he who believes AND is Baptized will be saved, he who does not believe will be condemned. Christ does not say what happens to someone who believes but is not Baptized! Mk 16:15-16

 

[christianley]

How else would you explain this.

The Church has decreed that unBaptized persons who die with only Original Sin and no personal Sin DO NOT go to Hell and suffer the punishments of the damned.

Christ said in the Scriptures: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God…Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born of water and the Spirit (Baptism), he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” John 3:3-5

Christ also says that he who believes AND is Baptized will be saved, he who does not believe will be condemned. Christ does not say what happens to someone who believes but is not Baptized! Mk 16:15-16

That’s all well and good, but Christ also told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise (even though he hadn’t been baptized).

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

That’s all well and good, but Christ also told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise (even though he hadn’t been baptized).

That is correct. The thief made a personal public profession of faith in Christ but died before being able to receive Baptism. The Church calls this “Baptism of Desire”.

 

[chutton]

That’s all well and good, but Christ also told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise (even though he hadn’t been baptized).

Good question.

It is definitely an interesting discussoin because as we can already see it does create a need to really dig into this deeper. I hope and pray God will clearly guide the catholic leadership in their discussion and consideration of this.

I think one thing we can all agree on here is that baptism is a commandment.

In Christ.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is correct. The thief made a personal public profession of faith in Christ but died before being able to receive Baptism. The Church calls this “Baptism of Desire”.

There is also the baptism of blood, which martyrs received.

And there is the question of those who died before Christ’s mission on earth – we know Moses and Elijah were with Him at the Transfiguration. Were they called up from Hell and eternal damnation, or are they somehow saved by His sacrifice, just as we are?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

There is also the baptism of blood, which martyrs received.

And there is the question of those who died before Christ’s mission on earth – we know Moses and Elijah were with Him at the Transfiguration. Were they called up from Hell and eternal damnation, or are they somehow saved by His sacrifice, just as we are?

Anyone who is saved is saved by Christ, His Sacrifice and Resurrection. The Scriptures say that Christ desended into the Limbo of the Fathers to preach the Good News to the spirits in prison. These would be the Old Testament saints. They went with Him into Heaven when He opened the gates of Heaven at His Ascension.

 

[gelsbern]

There is also the baptism of blood, which martyrs received.

And there is the question of those who died before Christ’s mission on earth – we know Moses and Elijah were with Him at the Transfiguration. Were they called up from Hell and eternal damnation, or are they somehow saved by His sacrifice, just as we are?

Read the Apostles Creed, and the Catechism.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Anyone who is saved is saved by Christ, His Sacrifice and Resurrection. The Scriptures say that Christ desended into the Limbo of the Fathers to preach the Good News to the spirits in prison. These would be the Old Testament saints. They went with Him into Heaven when He opened the gates of Heaven at His Ascension.

I don’t find the word “limbo” in any translation of the Bible I have. Nor do I find His descent to the dead described exactly like that.

It seems to me that clearly those rightous people who died before Christ were saved, but were not baptized in their lifetimes. Beyond that, there seems a vast area of speculation. Limbo is simply one speculation.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I don’t find the word “limbo” in any translation of the Bible I have. Nor do I find His descent to the dead described exactly like that.

It seems to me that clearly those rightous people who died before Christ were saved, but were not baptized in their lifetimes. Beyond that, there seems a vast area of speculation. Limbo is simply one speculation.

Limbo of the Fathers and The Bosom of Abraham are terms used by the Church.

The descent into Hell is explained in the CCC #631-637

 

[vern_humphrey]

Limbo of the Fathers and The Bosom of Abraham are terms used by the Church.

The descent into Hell is explained in the CCC #631-637

The word “limbo” doesn’t appear in those paragraphs, either.

If you read the paragraphs you citeed, it appears that “Hell” is not necessarily a firey abode for all who die unbaptized, nor are they there irrevocably. This doesn’t mean, of course, that some souls are not in eternal torment, just that not all the unbaptized dead are in such torment. And clearly, some of those in the abode of the dead may be brought to heaven – even if they died unbaptized.

 

[christianley]

The word “limbo” doesn’t appear in those paragraphs, either.

If you read the paragraphs you citeed, it appears that “Hell” is not necessarily a firey abode for all who die unbaptized, nor are they there irrevocably. This doesn’t mean, of course, that some souls are not in eternal torment, just that not all the unbaptized dead are in such torment. And clearly, some of those in the abode of the dead may be brought to heaven – even if they died unbaptized.

Apparently, limbo has a reprieve for now:

timesonline.co.uk/article/0,13509-2392192,00.html

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The word “limbo” doesn’t appear in those paragraphs, either.

If you read the paragraphs you citeed, it appears that “Hell” is not necessarily a firey abode for all who die unbaptized, nor are they there irrevocably. This doesn’t mean, of course, that some souls are not in eternal torment, just that not all the unbaptized dead are in such torment. And clearly, some of those in the abode of the dead may be brought to heaven – even if they died unbaptized.

The word doesn’t but the idea does. Limbus Patrum

From pg 188 of The Catechism Explained:

1. “Immediately after the death of Christ His soul went down in triumph into the place where the souls of those justified under the Old Law were detained.” (Fourth Council of Lateran)

This place is called limbo, and is quite distinct from purgatory, though both places has this feature in common, that in neither place is there the vision of God… Limbo is called in Scripture the “boson of Abraham” (Lk 16:22); the “prison” (1 Peter 3:19)… Christ went down to announce to the souls in limbo that He had accomplished the redemption.

It goes on to say St. Epiphanius, St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, St. Cypiran all speak of this.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The word doesn’t but the idea does. Limbus Patrum

From pg 188 of The Catechism Explained:

1. “Immediately after the death of Christ His soul went down in triumph into the place where the souls of those justified under the Old Law were detained.” (Fourth Council of Lateran)

This place is called limbo, and is quite distinct from purgatory, though both places has this feature in common, that in neither place is there the vision of God… Limbo is called in Scripture the “boson of Abraham” (Lk 16:22); the “prison” (1 Peter 3:19)… Christ went down to announce to the souls in limbo that He had accomplished the redemption.

It goes on to say St. Epiphanius, St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, St. Cypiran all speak of this.

Despite that, limbo has never been authoritatively accepted by the Church. It is like the Shroud of Turin – you may believe in it if you wish, but you are not required to.

 

[lrs]

Oh my goodness here we go AGAIN!

What about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, who never ever have the opportunity to learn about Jesus, to accept him as their personal savior. Is it only the Baptized Christians that are going to heaven?
Are you familiar with the Rahner coined term, “Anonymous Christian”, where by he states that those who have not had personal contact with the teaching of Christ- will by the Mercy and Grace of Christ still go to heaven if they have chosen to live a good and moral life!
I absolutely do not discredit Baptism, or any Sacrament enlisted by the Church of Christ. When we are baptized, we are anointed with the Holy Spirit to go out into the world and spread the love of God. We are welcomed into the Church Community, and we are strengthened and saved by the Sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.This sacrifice is for every single human being past, present, and future on this planet. We are born into a world of Sin, and since we have been given free will, we most times make poor choices, based on being subjected to the sin of others, greed, lust, sloth. Any sins. We need to be strengthened and annointed to resist this human temptation to sin, and therefore any loving and spiritual parent would want this. Bapitismal annointing for this child. This sacrifice on the Cross brought life from finiteness to infinity. Remember, God offers 70 x 70 times forgiveness of sins and so must we with one another. This is eternity, this is a heavenly peace for us. A huge and supernatural undertaking. We can not do this with out God. However, we can not in a totaliarian kind of way reject God, reject the love God communicates to each and everyone of us. This is the only time that we will not enter into eternal time with Jesus. Heaven.
There is no limbo for children, and purgatory to me is a cleansing period, a review of your life. An opportunity for healing, a look at where you chose to love and did not choose to love. The mercy of GOD is much greater that we can comprehend. This mercy of God is the primary teaching of the church.

Does not Jesus say several times"all of God’s Children" We will never understand the wisdom of God, nor the mystery of God, or should we try. It is not just Christians that are going to Heaven.

Blessings and Eternal Peace,
Remember, Jesus said, he gives the Peace the world can not give. Can we comprehend this Gift?? Again, can we comprehend this gift of mercy?
Lisa

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Despite that, limbo has never been authoritatively accepted by the Church. It is like the Shroud of Turin – you may believe in it if you wish, but you are not required to.

Limbo of the Fathers is Catholic dogma!

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

There is no limbo for children, and purgatory to me is a cleansing period, a review of your life. An opportunity for healing, a look at where you chose to love and did not choose to love. The mercy of GOD is much greater that we can comprehend. This mercy of God is the primary teaching of the church.

Lisa

“a look at where you chose to love and did not choose to love.”

I think that is called the “Particular Judgment”

God is merciful and also a just judge. Read Matthew 25:31-46

 

[whosebob]

Limbo of the Fathers is Catholic dogma!

JMJ + OBT​

Indeed. The Limbo article in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia opens with this helpful clarification:

(Late Lat. limbus) a word of Teutonic derivation, meaning literally “hem” or “border,” as of a garment, or anything joined on (cf. Italian lembo or English limb).

In theological usage the name is applied to (a) the temporary place or state of the souls of the just who, although purified from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ’s triumphant ascension into Heaven (the “limbus patrum”); or (b) to the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone (the “limbus infantium” or “puerorum”).

In literary usage the name is sometimes applied in a wider and more general sense to any place or state of restraint, confinement, or exclusion, and is practically equivalent to “prison” (see, e.g., Milton, “Paradise Lost,” III, 495; Butler, “Hudibras,” part II, canto i, and other English classics). The not unnatural transition from the theological to the literary usage is exemplified in Shakespeare, “Henry VIII,” act v, sc. 3. In this article we shall deal only with the theological meaning and connotation of the word. (Limbo in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia)

And just a few paragraphs later, the article concludes regarding the Limbus Patrum:

In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matt. 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matt. 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) and in Christ’s words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:18-20).

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum. (Limbo in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia)

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[vern_humphrey]

Limbo of the Fathers is Catholic dogma!

Limbo was widely accepted by Catholics, but I don’t find any justification for calling what we refer to as Limbo Catholic Dogma.

Certainly, it isn’t in the Catechism. And in John Paul the Great’s Apostolic Letter prefacing the Catechism, he says

In this regard one can certainly understand that such a remarkable number of suggested improvements shows the extraordinary interest that the Catechism has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.

(My emphasis.)

 

[whosebob]

Limbo was widely accepted by Catholics, but I don’t find any justification for calling what we refer to as Limbo Catholic Dogma.

JMJ + OBT​

There is a difference between the Limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), which is de fide Catholic teaching, and the Limbo of Infants (limbus infantium), for which the Magisterium has never provided a dogmatic definition though there is a strong historical tradition which stands behind it’s existence. See my post from a few minutes ago for more on the difference between the “lmbos.”

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA